Toad B or Toad E? That is the question. A standard fix following.

[LarryG]

I can well believe the brake carried a restrictive use notice on the sides. BR wouldn't have wanted the old van bombing off down the man line....

Just seen Overseers opening post and noticed the rebuilt LMS 60' corridor brake composite with original canvass roof and Stanier sides.

 

[Overseer]

The Toad B conversion has progressed. A few bolts and other bits to add to the body and safety brackets to add to the brake gear. I think I will add a simple interior.


As @LarryG noticed, the usual passenger accommodation on the Dornoch during the 1950s was a diagram 1704A brake composite. Something else on the shelf needing to be finished.

 

[Overseer]

Thanks for all the likes.

Looking at the model compared with the photos of the Dornoch branch brake and the Fraserburgh branch brake I don't think they match. Now I don't think that these brake vans were Toad B vans. Counting cladding boards I think there are too many on my model. And the position of the axles relative to the body doesn't look quite right. I think these vans had short bodies, the same as used on the BR standard / Toad D vans, so 16' 6" long instead of 19' on the Toad B and Toad E. I also think the wheelbase might be 10' instead of 10" 6". Too late to change this one now, I should have done the research properly to start with. I suppose I now need to find a Toad B which has the features I have modelled to at least be able to put a correct number on it.


Slaters BR Standard van body on top of the modified Parkside Toad E kit showing the difference in body length.

Very annoying. While writing this post I have just found that I have the diagram for these branch line brake vans and could have got it right to start with. The diagram appears in North Eastern Railway Diagrams of Wagons Volume 2, facsimile published by NERA in 1995. The vans are North Eastern Railway Diagram V.4 10 ton Goods Brake Vans with steel under frame to drawing No. 1313Y, built in April 1908. They were 17' over headstocks with a 10' wheelbase and originally had 3'7" wheels. Not sure if they had smaller wheels by Nationalisation.

Now do I buy another kit or just scratch build a NER Diagram V.4 van?

 

[Simon]

Fraser, whatever you do, I'd finish off this very nice model first.

OK so maybe it isn't "the" Dornoch brake, but it is quite likely one of "your" Toads did go up the branch at some point, and it's not as if you have made a totally inappropriate Cambrian van by mistake(!)

Simon

 

[Overseer]

Fraser, whatever you do, I'd finish off this very nice model first.

OK so maybe it isn't "the" Dornoch brake, but it is quite likely one of "your" Toads did go up the branch at some point, and it's not as if you have made a totally inappropriate Cambrian van by mistake(!)

Simon

Yes, I will finish it. It matches some of the Toad B vans, or it will when it has RCH 20 1/2 inch buffers fitted. This will break all records for changes of buffers during construction.

 

[Daddyman]

I don't think they match. Now I don't think that these brake vans were Toad B vans.

Sorry - I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying the Dornoch and F/burgh vans don't match each other, or that they match each other but not your model? My feeling when the photo was shown was that the F/burgh one was an ex-NER one, but that doesn't mean the Dornoch one (which is what I thought you were modelling) is also an ex-NER one, does it? Unless you have a good side-on view of the Dornoch one, which shows it is also ex-NER?

 

[Overseer]

Sorry - I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying the Dornoch and F/burgh vans don't match each other, or that they match each other but not your model? My feeling when the photo was shown was that the F/burgh one was an ex-NER one, but that doesn't mean the Dornoch one (which is what I thought you were modelling) is also an ex-NER one, does it? Unless you have a good side-on view of the Dornoch one, which shows it is also ex-NER?

The Dornoch van is not exactly the same as the Fraserburgh van but is the same type. The differences include the cladding details. There are a number of photos with brake vans in the background at Dornoch but no portrait shots that I know about. I am now sure they are NER diag. V4 vans. So my model doesn’t match either prototype.

 

[Daddyman]

Yes, on closer inspection it does look like one - though oddly not in the Ernie Brack photo at the start of this thread, where it looks very Toad-B-like. There's a view on the last page of Michael Welch's Steam in the Scottish Landscape that does seem to suggest it's a V4 (I hadn't realised any survived so long) - possibly ducket lower on the bodyside and greater roof overhang. I can't say for sure the bauxite one I referenced earlier isn't a V4 either.

 

[Ben Alder]

I have had a good rake through my photo archive, but sadly despite having a number of the Dornoch van pictures due either to the angle that the photographer was standing at or distance from the van I've failed to conform the number of this vehicle. However, if you want to move to the St Combs to Fraserburgh branch they ran a similar one that was numbered E12793. This photograph is copyright of the GNSRA and the notes that accompany this picture state that a similar van worked Gerorgemas to Thurso, sadly no record of that one's number. Worth noting that if you are sticking with the Dornoch one some of the photos I have looked at appear to carry a plate; again can't make out the details, but suspect it could say "To work between Mound to Dornoch". View attachment 164365

All the best

John

To resurrect an old topic, inspired by a post on RMweb re V4 brake vans, the Thurso allocated brake was an ex GC , and they are very kindly, for me, doing a model of that one...