Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[James Fibbens]

I was also about to suggest 34009 Lyme Regis. Kind of looks like two zeros in the numberplate, and the nameplate is a resonable fit for length...

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Another possibility could have been 34089 602 Squadron but ruled out as the bottom part of the nameplate below the crest is the wrong shape.

 

[James Fibbens]

It's also not a BoB crest, which were oval.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for coming up with the actual location of the Standard 5 and West Country photos. The info about those EMUs is so very helpful too. Also for your thoughts about the identity of the Bulleid Pacific but I'm going for 34009 for which I thank Barry @Barry37 and James @James Fibbens.

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35012 United States Lines at Byfleet Junction from the West Weybridge direction in the 1960s so probably July 1965. There’s a blue and grey GUV at the front of the train which is a set of Pullman coaches so probably the Bournemouth Belle. There’s probably a blue and grey GUV at the rear of the train too. 35012 was resident at Weymouth Radipole from August/September 1964 when it moved to Nine Elms in March/April 1967. It was withdrawn in the same month (SLS) and went to Cashmore’s, Newport where it was scrapped in October 1967. (BR Database).



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73018 at Berrylands in the 1960s so probably in July 1965. Home for the loco was Weymouth Radipole from September/October 1958 but it moved to Guildford in March/April 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in January 1968. (BR Database)



Original West Country 34038 Lynton in the 1960s. The first photo, img575, is confirmed as being at Feltham (obviously a good freight engine (!) as there were plenty of alternatives still around at the time and everyone knows they were a mixed traffic class). It’s reasonable to assume that the next two, img789 & 791 were photographed in the same location on the same day. The loco was allocated to Eastleigh in October/November 1961 and Nine Elms in December 1964/January 1965 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in September the same year. (BR Database).








Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thank you, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for coming up with the actual location of the Standard 5 and West Country photos. The info about those EMUs is so very helpful too. Also for your thoughts about the identity of the Bulleid Pacific but I'm going for 34007 for which I thank Barry @Barry37 and James @James Fibbens.

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35012 United States Lines at Byfleet Junction from the West Weybridge direction in the 1960s so probably July 1965. There’s a blue and grey GUV at the front of the train which is a set of Pullman coaches so probably the Bournemouth Belle. There’s probably a blue and grey GUV at the rear of the train too. 35012 was resident at Weymouth Radipole from August/September 1964 when it moved to Nine Elms in March/April 1967. It was withdrawn in the same month (SLS) and went to Cashmore’s, Newport where it was scrapped in October 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 263907

Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73018 at Berrylands in the 1960s so probably in July 1965. Home for the loco was Weymouth Radipole from September/October 1958 but it moved to Guildford in March/April 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in January 1968. (BR Database)

View attachment 263908

Original West Country 34038 Lynton in the 1960s. The first photo, img575, is confirmed as being at Feltham (obviously a good freight engine (!) as there were plenty of alternatives still around at the time and everyone knows they were a mixed traffic class). It’s reasonable to assume that the next two, img789 & 791 were photographed in the same location on the same day. The loco was allocated to Eastleigh in October/November 1961 and Nine Elms in December 1964/January 1965 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in September the same year. (BR Database).

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Brian

You mean "... going for 34009", not 34007 (which wasn't rebuilt), surely?

 

[oldravendale]

Absolutely correct, Barry @Barry37 . Fat finger (and failing to check my work) syndrome! I'll now edit. In fact I'd changed the brief description of the photo in my files correctly!

 

[40057]

The GUV is a BG.

GUVs were generally (always?) all-over blue. (Edit to add: blue as opposed to blue and grey. Red or maroon when those liveries were current).

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35012 United States Lines at Byfleet Junction from the West Weybridge direction in the 1960s so probably July 1965. There’s a blue and grey GUV at the front of the train which is a set of Pullman coaches so probably the Bournemouth Belle.

More than likely as the headcode is Waterloo and Nine Elms and Brockenhurst and Bournemouth West via Sway.

Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73018 at Berrylands in the 1960s so probably in July 1965.

This is also a Bournemouth train.

Original West Country 34038 Lynton in the 1960s. The first photo, img575, is confirmed as being at Feltham (obviously a good freight engine (!) as there were plenty of alternatives still around at the time and everyone knows they were a mixed traffic class).

The headcode displayed didn't exist for trains starting at Feltham Yard. For trains starting at Feltham Yard and for the discs as seen: right hand disc only - Willesden and Feltham Yard via Gunnersbury; left hand disc only - Willesden and Feltham Yard via Kew East Junction. Could be one of them wasn't removed.

Another possibility is it could be part way through a journey which started at Reading as this headcode was either:
Brent or Neasden or Willesden to Reading via Kew East Junction.
Temple Mills or Victoria Docks to Reading via Victoria Park and Kew East Junction.

For this journey it could have been - Reading, Wokingham, Ascot, Staines, Feltham, Kew East Junction, Acton Wells Junction which would either send the train to Willesden and North London Line for Temple Mills or to Brent or Neasden.

 

[AJC]

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35012 United States Lines at Byfleet Junction from the West Weybridge direction in the 1960s so probably July 1965. There’s a blue and grey GUV at the front of the train which is a set of Pullman coaches so probably the Bournemouth Belle. There’s probably a blue and grey GUV at the rear of the train too.

It can't really be anything else than the 'Belle by that date - any other Pullman special would be unlikely to have had the additional BG at the front and a blue grey one was common by that date, but photographic evidence shows every other colour of BG you can imagine: chocolate and cream, green, maroon, etc.

Here's a green one (because I've heard it said that no such thing existed):

https://flic.kr/p/dpAkaX

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Here's a green one (because I've heard it said that no such thing existed):

I would have said if BGs passed through Lancing (before closure in 1965), Ashford or Eastleigh there would have bound to some green ones .

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your comment, Martin @40057 but I'm pretty sure I saw some maroon BGs and there were evidentially some green ones. Thanks to Adam @AJC for providing evidence and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for additional comments. Thanks also to you both for the comments about the Bournemouth Belle and to Dave for confirming the head code of that Standard 5. As far as the photos of 34038 are concerned I'm comfortable that they are at Feltham - D3459 which features in one of the photos was at Feltham from November/December 1962 to June/July 1970 (BR Database). It fits with your advice about the possible route if it had stopped at Feltham for servicing and water.

Standard Class 3 2-6-2T 82023 at Vauxhall and probably on empty stock in the 1960s. The loco was allocated to Eastleigh in September 1962 but moved almost immediately to Nine Elms in October/November the same year. (SLS). Doubtless its presence at Vauxhall was at the time of the Nine Elms allocation although it’s typically for the time not carrying a shed plate. The loco was withdrawn from Nine Elms at the end of September/beginning of October 1966 and went to Cashmore’s, Newport where it was broken up in March 1967. (BR Database).



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73022 at Berrylands in the 1960s. This was allocated to Guildford in June 1965 and Nine Elms in June 1966 before withdrawal in April 1967. (SLS) It went, along with many other surviving SR locos, to Cashmore’s, Newport where it was scrapped in September 1967.



Original West Country 34007 Wadebridge at Waterloo in the 1960s. It was a Nine Elms loco for many years but moved to Salisbury in August/September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965 (SLS) and sent to Woodham’s, Barry. See
34007 Wadebridge (SR 21C107, BR s21C107 & 34007) for details of its restoration.



Brian

 

[readingtype]

[...]

Original West Country 34007 Wadebridge at Waterloo in the 1960s. It was a Nine Elms loco for many years but moved to Salisbury in August/September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965 (SLS) and sent to Woodham’s, Barry. See
34007 Wadebridge (SR 21C107, BR s21C107 & 34007) for details of its restoration.

I'm intrigued by the first vehicle in 34007's train. Its end profile is that of a freight van. A four-axle GUV perhaps? But the sharp corners of the roof seem wrong. The vertical part of a step frame seems to be highlighted below solebar level.

Ben

 

[AJC]

I'm intrigued by the first vehicle in 34007's train. Its end profile is that of a freight van. A four-axle GUV perhaps? But the sharp corners of the roof seem wrong. The vertical part of a step frame seems to be highlighted below solebar level.

Ben

Good spot. I wonder whether it's one of the fibreglass PMVs. Dad's modelled one and the profile and steps are suggestive:

Adam

 

[John Palmer]

That's really useful info, Arun @Arun Sharma and clarifies the details I cobbled together from the on line records. Your comments are added to the data attached to the photo.

Also (and again) to Dave @Yorkshire Dave. I believe we've been at that location previously but your correction of the description is again most welcome.

Standard Class 5 73088, previously Joyous Gard, at Berrylands in July 1965. Note the two EMUs on the left of frame, one with a yellow panel and the other still in plain green. The third coach in the train is in blue and grey and all these factors are indicative of the date of the photo.

73088 was allocated to Nine Elms in September 1958, moving to Guildford in October 1965 and being withdrawn in September/October 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in June 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 263847

This is at Berrylands in the 1960s so more than likely on the same date as the photo above. I’ve tried to identify the loco from the photo but it appears to be 34069 which makes it Battle of Britain Hawkinge but I think this is a West Country judging by the badge above the nameplate and 34069 was never rebuilt. Furthermore Hawkinge was withdrawn in November 1963 so it’s rather ruled out and instead we’ll have to call this an unknown rebuilt West Country.

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Brian

Re the questioned rebuilt West Country, I also think this may be 34009 Lyme Regis, as I think I see in the crest two wavy blue lines on a white ground beneath something gold on a red ground in the upper part . This would be consistent with the crest carried by Lyme Regis.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for yours, Ben @readingtype and Adam @AJC for providing the likely answer. Here are two detailed pics of the area in question, one with the a straightforward lightening of the image and another with the shadows lifted. It's still very indistinct but may just help the identification.





Brian

 

[David B]

A minor point, but I wonder whether the dates of the photos of 35012 at Byfleet and 73018 at Berrylands are a tad early. I haven’t managed to find any photos of blue and grey Mk1 BGs on the Bournemouth Belle before September 1966, and the late Chris Foren noted on RMWeb in Sept 2016 that “The Railway Observer, often good for carriage minutiae, records in 1966 the transfers to the Southern Region of the following BGs [though when they were actually transferred is not recorded] and their being painted green: 80561, 80714, 80916, 80926, 81153, 81273, 81292, 81345, 81510 and 81542. It also records in the October 1966 issue that S80645 and S80875 had received blue and grey livery so it is clear that not all the SR's inherited BGs carried green.” The front BG in Tim’s photo looks very clean, so I would suggest that the photo was taken in late summer/early autumn 1966 rather than July 1965. Likewise 73018 is carrying the non standard replacement front numberplate which it had in 1967, but there is a David Canning photo of it at Reading West on an interregional service dated 1966 where it is carrying a standard numberplate. So maybe the Berrylands photo too should be dated to late summer/early autumn 1966.

I think I should get out more!

 

[hrmspaul]

The GUV is a BG.

GUVs were generally (always?) all-over blue. (Edit to add: blue as opposed to blue and grey. Red or maroon when those liveries were current).

Martin

Generally yes, but this Motorail one (and I am sure there were others) is blue and grey BR Non passenger carrying coaching stock BG GUV NNX NCX NEX NEX NKV NKA NJV NJX NBA NCV NAV NJV NLZ | 96153_GUV_as_NXX_Inter City Motorail @ Thornton Junction 89-08-01_m_ And later some made it into Royal Mail Red. BR Non passenger carrying coaching stock BG GUV NNX NCX NEX NEX NKV NKA NJV NJX NBA NCV NAV NJV NLZ | 93571_[ex 86571] NJX_GUV_@ Cambridge 90-05-05 _m_

Paul

 

[AJC]

Thank you for yours, Ben @readingtype and Adam @AJC for providing the likely answer. Here are two detailed pics of the area in question, one with the a straightforward lightening of the image and another with the shadows lifted. It's still very indistinct but may just help the identification.

View attachment 264046

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Brian

I - and dad - reckon that's conclusive. I think there's something like a Mk 1 BG beyond in the gloom. Thank you, Brian - it's not quite the unique prototype vanwide we had earlier in the thread but that's one of ten.

Adam

 

[hrmspaul]

Thank you for yours, Ben @readingtype and Adam @AJC for providing the likely answer. Here are two detailed pics of the area in question, one with the a straightforward lightening of the image and another with the shadows lifted. It's still very indistinct but may just help the identification.

View attachment 264046

View attachment 264047

Brian

I'll agree that is one of the fibreglass PMVs. Good Photo and Mike King drawing in Gould, David (1992) Southern Railway passenger vans. The Oakwood Press 128p ISBN 0 85361 4288 and King, Mike (2006) An illustrated history of Southern Coaches. OPC 224p ISBN 0-86093-570-1

Paul