Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
The black ends were done away with when the blue-grey livery came in. I think it also had something to do with new paint formulations and better painting processes.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
The black ends were done away with when the blue-grey livery came in. I think it also had something to do with new paint formulations and better painting processes.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
The ‘racehorses’ came first in a continuation of LNER practice I believe, and as far as I dimly recall, were all based at Finsbury Park. The regiments came later, sometimes several years later.
Not so! I believe the black ends were dropped slightly before that. The reason as I understand it was the adoption of spray painting for coaches instead of brush painting. Southern Region green coaches were the first to have the ends the same colour as the body sides if I recall correctly.
Yes, according to the Deltic preservation site information, the racehorses got named at Doncaster once built. There were ceremonies for the others.
Sorry for the digression.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Duly corrected!
It’s been some time since I last tackled a "modern" coach. Memory gets a bit hazy on details!
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Heather, David, Mick and 40057 for the detail update. Such things are so easily forgotten and if nothing else Tim's archive brings such matters to the fore.
Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. The DMU It is what we would consider by sight a Craven 105 but the the classifications were split.
the 105 was either the MCL (105/1) or the MBS (105/2)
the 141 was DTCL
What is shown is a class 105/2 Driving Motor Brake Second with the "A3" body - the 2 digit indicator box and the door arrangement at the guards compartment, with a class 141 Driving Trailer Composite Lavatory. These sets were allocated to Norwich, Heaton, Hull, Bletchley and Strafford at around this time.
Very few people bothered with photos of DMUs at this time and I'm grateful to Tim for taking the trouble! Judging by the tail lamp it's going away from the camera, either towards or away from Royston.
Two different Class 47s at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. The different front blinds are noticeable as is the temporary lifting barrier and the truck waiting to cross the line in the second shot. Possibly this one is 47404. It appears to have the distinctive eth fittings found only on 47401–47420 (the first 47s with eth). With that knowledge, the number can just be deciphered as potentially 47404. That batch of 47s were always ECML locos as far as I know. It started life at Finsbury Park as D1503, was renumbered in March 1974, transferred to Immingham in August 1977 then back to Finsbury Park in June 1987. Withdrawn in June 1987 it was scrapped at Vic Berry, Leicester, in September 1990. (All BR Database).
Finally, the trains having cleared the truck gets the OK to cross the line. The truck is a Leyland Reiver. Location again Holloway Road on 11th March 1977.
Brian
Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. The DMU It is what we would consider by sight a Craven 105 but the the classifications were split.
the 105 was either the MCL (105/1) or the MBS (105/2)
the 141 was DTCL
What is shown is a class 105/2 Driving Motor Brake Second with the "A3" body - the 2 digit indicator box and the door arrangement at the guards compartment, with a class 141 Driving Trailer Composite Lavatory. These sets were allocated to Norwich, Heaton, Hull, Bletchley and Strafford at around this time.
Very few people bothered with photos of DMUs at this time and I'm grateful to Tim for taking the trouble! Judging by the tail lamp it's going away from the camera, either towards or away from Royston.
Two different Class 47s at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. The different front blinds are noticeable as is the temporary lifting barrier and the truck waiting to cross the line in the second shot. Possibly this one is 47404. It appears to have the distinctive eth fittings found only on 47401–47420 (the first 47s with eth). With that knowledge, the number can just be deciphered as potentially 47404. That batch of 47s were always ECML locos as far as I know. It started life at Finsbury Park as D1503, was renumbered in March 1974, transferred to Immingham in August 1977 then back to Finsbury Park in June 1987. Withdrawn in June 1987 it was scrapped at Vic Berry, Leicester, in September 1990. (All BR Database).
Finally, the trains having cleared the truck gets the OK to cross the line. The truck is a Leyland Reiver. Location again Holloway Road on 11th March 1977.
Brian
Last edited:
I think the top 47 is 47404. It appears to have the distinctive eth fittings found only on 47401–47420 (the first 47s with eth). With that knowledge, I think the number can just be deciphered as 47404. That batch of 47s were always ECML locos as far as I know.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
I'm no expert on dmu's, but it looks like a pair of Cravens class 141 units in the first photograph. These were allocated to the Eastern Region in some numbers. I think it can be reasonably assumed to be a pair of two car units as the leading yellow end of the trailing pair can be distinguished against the edge of the o.h. mast in the centre foreground. These units were described as two-car sets. As ever, I am open to correction by those who have better knowledge.
Roger.
Roger.
Pannier Tank
Western Thunderer
I think they are Craven Class 105's; the Class 14x series were second generation DMU's. Further information here: DMU Types
John Duffy
Western Thunderer
Your are both correct in a way. It is what we would consider by sight a Craven 105 but the the classifications were split.
the 105 was either the MCL (105/1) or the MBS (105/2)
the 141 was DTCL
What is shown is a class 105/2 Driving Motor Brake Second with the "A3" body - the 2 digit indicator box and the door arrangement at the guards compartment, with a class 141 Driving Trailer Composite Lavatory. These sets were allocated to Norwich, Heaton, Hull, Bletchley and Strafford at around this time.
John
Pannier Tank
Western Thunderer
John,
Thank you for the clarification of the Class 105 / 141's. Your notes reminded me that in the early 1970's I must have travelled on all of the Bletchley Allocation on my way to/from work. I can still vividly remember the 'rattling' as they traversed the Bletchley to Bedford Branch.
Thank you for the clarification of the Class 105 / 141's. Your notes reminded me that in the early 1970's I must have travelled on all of the Bletchley Allocation on my way to/from work. I can still vividly remember the 'rattling' as they traversed the Bletchley to Bedford Branch.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks 40057, Osgood 
, Roger, David, Alan and John. I have freely plagiarised all this information and corrected my entries against each of the photos. IMHO all this info is so important in providing as much detail as possible against each of the photos.
I can't quite make out the number of this Class 40 but it's again at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. Edit. Probably 40059. See info below
40059 at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. This was previously D259 and was allocated to York North from where it was withdrawn in August 1977. It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in October 1978.
Finally, and appropriately in this batch of photos, again at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977 is this unidentified Deltic but I think it's 55022 again, probably the shot preceding the one in post #2220.
The next sequence will be back to more normal fare, this time around Southall and Old Oak.
Brian
, Roger, David, Alan and John. I have freely plagiarised all this information and corrected my entries against each of the photos. IMHO all this info is so important in providing as much detail as possible against each of the photos.I can't quite make out the number of this Class 40 but it's again at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. Edit. Probably 40059. See info below
40059 at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977. This was previously D259 and was allocated to York North from where it was withdrawn in August 1977. It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in October 1978.
Finally, and appropriately in this batch of photos, again at Holloway Road on 11th March 1977 is this unidentified Deltic but I think it's 55022 again, probably the shot preceding the one in post #2220.
The next sequence will be back to more normal fare, this time around Southall and Old Oak.
Brian
Last edited:
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I'm dropping this one in now as for some reason I passed it by during the last series of photos. The Southall pics will follow.
11th March 1977 at Holloway Road with 31187 passing the temporary lifting barrier in place to allow lorry access for removal of spoil during rebuilding. This was previously D5610 and had been allocated to Finsbury Park since new, although moved to Gateshead in February 1978. It was withdrawn from there in March 2000 and scrapped at T J Thomson and Son Ltd at Stockton by the end of June 2003.
Brian
11th March 1977 at Holloway Road with 31187 passing the temporary lifting barrier in place to allow lorry access for removal of spoil during rebuilding. This was previously D5610 and had been allocated to Finsbury Park since new, although moved to Gateshead in February 1978. It was withdrawn from there in March 2000 and scrapped at T J Thomson and Son Ltd at Stockton by the end of June 2003.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
As promised, a misty Southall on the same day and from the same film as pictures around post #2204. How this film became separated in to two parts is anyone's guess.
Two photos on 9th February 1963 of 47XX 2-8-0 No 4706 on an up freight at Southall. It had belonged to Southall Shed since October 1962 but moved to Old Oak Common in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS). It went to Swindon Works where it was cut up in June 1964. (WHTS).
9th February 1963 with Castle 7006 Lydford Castle approaching Southall Station. This has been in these pages previously, in post #1185 and, photographed passing through Southall Station on the 9th February 1963 in post #2204. I'm trying to put the story together for this photo and the one in post #2204. Both show the loco with the reporting number "A03", although the "0" could well be a chalked decoration around the smokebox door dog. However, the "A" and the "3" both appear to be properly applied and not chalked. Furthermore the photo in post #2204 shows the loco in the up direction whereas this one shows it on a down train so it must have been turned in London - probably at Raneleigh Road. Perhaps the reporting number is spurious - it must be as far as at least one of the trains is concerned so I hope it didn't confuse the signalmen. Lydford Castle had been an Old Oak loco since March 1962, being withdrawn from there in mid December 1963. (SLS). It went to Bird's, Risca where it was scrapped in August 1964. (BR Database).
Two more of a 47XX 2-8-0, this time 4707 light engine again at Southall on 9th February 1963. It had been on the Southall allocation since December 1955 and moved to Old Oak Common in November 1963. (SLS). It went to King and Sons at Norwich for scrap where it was observed in July 1964. (WHTS).
Brian
Two photos on 9th February 1963 of 47XX 2-8-0 No 4706 on an up freight at Southall. It had belonged to Southall Shed since October 1962 but moved to Old Oak Common in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS). It went to Swindon Works where it was cut up in June 1964. (WHTS).
9th February 1963 with Castle 7006 Lydford Castle approaching Southall Station. This has been in these pages previously, in post #1185 and, photographed passing through Southall Station on the 9th February 1963 in post #2204. I'm trying to put the story together for this photo and the one in post #2204. Both show the loco with the reporting number "A03", although the "0" could well be a chalked decoration around the smokebox door dog. However, the "A" and the "3" both appear to be properly applied and not chalked. Furthermore the photo in post #2204 shows the loco in the up direction whereas this one shows it on a down train so it must have been turned in London - probably at Raneleigh Road. Perhaps the reporting number is spurious - it must be as far as at least one of the trains is concerned so I hope it didn't confuse the signalmen. Lydford Castle had been an Old Oak loco since March 1962, being withdrawn from there in mid December 1963. (SLS). It went to Bird's, Risca where it was scrapped in August 1964. (BR Database).
Two more of a 47XX 2-8-0, this time 4707 light engine again at Southall on 9th February 1963. It had been on the Southall allocation since December 1955 and moved to Old Oak Common in November 1963. (SLS). It went to King and Sons at Norwich for scrap where it was observed in July 1964. (WHTS).
Brian
Last edited:
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I'll wager heavily this is the same engine (059), first going into Kings X and then leaving. It may even be the same train given the square stickers on the windows but then I'm not sure how it would have been released to run around to get back on the front.
Never the less the give away is the radiator intake slats they are identically set in both photos, the odds of that is pretty small (especially photos take on the same day location) given that by this stage, they were usually hand set as the linkages to each vane were either broken or simply ripped out.
Generally speaking you can't use the vanes as a long term identification feature as they were moved quite often, but the same day and location means it's a very high chance it's the same engine, plus, it does look like a 9 as the last digit on the first photo.
simond
Western Thunderer
Looks like the crew were beyond caring, water filler lid open…
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks, Mick, for your suggestion re the class 40. That'd make sense for a loco going up to the Cross, turned round and out on the next available train.
Regrettably, Simon, at the time of these photos any sense of pride was being steadily beaten out of the steam crews, particularly on the WR although the two 47XX locos look at least as though they've had some care. Anyway, more from Southall.
Hall Class 4902 Aldenham Hall light engine at Southall on 9th February 1963. It went in to store a month later. In early 1963 it became a Didcot engine, moving to Taunton in June and withdrawn in September. It was scrapped at Cohen's, Morriston, in May 1964. (BR Database). Note another loco on the same track outside the shed. This sort of conflicting movement was common at Southall.
Three shots here of 2884 Class 2-8-0 2898 at Southall on 9th February 1963. The first two show the loco light, leaving the shed complex in an up direction to collect its train which is seen in the third shot. 2898 was a Didcot loco at the time, moving to Reading in June, then back to Didcot in January 1964 before withdrawal in October. (SLS). It went to Steel Supply Co, Jersey Marine, where it was cut up probably in April 1965. (WHTS).
Another 2884 2-8-0, No 3834 on a down freight passing Southall Shed on 9th February 1963. This was shedded at Southall at the time and moved to Taunton in June where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It went to Bird's at Risca where it was scrapped some time around November. (WHTS).
Another Hall, this time 4919 Donnington Hall on an up freight passing Southall on 9th February 1963. This one also appears to have the water filler lid open. Home shed was Swindon, moving to Southall in January 1964 and then Worcester in September where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was another that went to Steel Supply Co, Jersey Marine, where it was cut up also probably in April 1965. (WHTS).
Finally 57XX 0-6-0PT 4608 on an up trip freight passing Southall Shed on 9th February 1963. It was a Southall engine at the time (BR Database) although moved to Old Oak Common in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). WHTS records it as stored at Southall September to November 1964, though, which is rather more likely than a transfer to Old Oak. It went to Bird's at Risca where it was scrapped probably by the end of 1964. (WHTS).
Brian
Regrettably, Simon, at the time of these photos any sense of pride was being steadily beaten out of the steam crews, particularly on the WR although the two 47XX locos look at least as though they've had some care. Anyway, more from Southall.
Hall Class 4902 Aldenham Hall light engine at Southall on 9th February 1963. It went in to store a month later. In early 1963 it became a Didcot engine, moving to Taunton in June and withdrawn in September. It was scrapped at Cohen's, Morriston, in May 1964. (BR Database). Note another loco on the same track outside the shed. This sort of conflicting movement was common at Southall.
Three shots here of 2884 Class 2-8-0 2898 at Southall on 9th February 1963. The first two show the loco light, leaving the shed complex in an up direction to collect its train which is seen in the third shot. 2898 was a Didcot loco at the time, moving to Reading in June, then back to Didcot in January 1964 before withdrawal in October. (SLS). It went to Steel Supply Co, Jersey Marine, where it was cut up probably in April 1965. (WHTS).
Another 2884 2-8-0, No 3834 on a down freight passing Southall Shed on 9th February 1963. This was shedded at Southall at the time and moved to Taunton in June where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It went to Bird's at Risca where it was scrapped some time around November. (WHTS).
Another Hall, this time 4919 Donnington Hall on an up freight passing Southall on 9th February 1963. This one also appears to have the water filler lid open. Home shed was Swindon, moving to Southall in January 1964 and then Worcester in September where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was another that went to Steel Supply Co, Jersey Marine, where it was cut up also probably in April 1965. (WHTS).
Finally 57XX 0-6-0PT 4608 on an up trip freight passing Southall Shed on 9th February 1963. It was a Southall engine at the time (BR Database) although moved to Old Oak Common in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). WHTS records it as stored at Southall September to November 1964, though, which is rather more likely than a transfer to Old Oak. It went to Bird's at Risca where it was scrapped probably by the end of 1964. (WHTS).
Brian
Last edited: