The no solder brigade

mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Johns post in the early hours of this morning, plus one or two other comments dotted around recently, prompted me to ponder during F1 this afternoon if the presence of models with little visible solder was actually becoming detrimental to the collective, a step too far, a goal unachievable in the eyes of some.

So some random thoughts and in no particular order, though the first is the most important.

Solder free is a choice, it's not a mandate or criteria.

Solder free is not one-upmanship or competitive, it has it's place but is not a requirement.

Solder free comes with experience, practice and again, choice.

The design of the kit has a large bearing on whether you can construct it with minimal solder joints. Butt joints with no blind solder holes or tabs are always going to be a mess.

Expensive tools are definitely not a requirement or help.

If the model is going to be painted then solder free is a waste of time, so long as the surface is flat, clean and prepared it does not matter if it's solder or metal.

The choice of material has an impact, Nickle Silver transmits heat much better and less solder flows further and cleaner than it does on brass, it's also easier to clean off and being virtually the same colour, easy to camouflage in photos.

Moving on to personal work, the Bulleid project had to be as solder free for two reasons.
One; Photos for the instructions, good clean photos are essential to give customers clean and concise information.
Two; Display model for the first outing of the new team.

If the model did not have to meet either or both of those requirements then solder free is purely a matter of choice and now that it has achieved those two targets and is getting painted, was all a waste of time. The requirement to keep the model clean for the build has cost me in the region of around 150 hrs cleaning just for photos.

I am not good at solder free work, just slightly better than average at cleaning up afterward.

As an example of un-solder free work here's a view underneath in an area that does not need photos or need to be particularly neat once painted. Note tarnishing on the brass since I stopped the weekly cleaning regime.

IMG_8025.jpg

Anyway, enjoy what you do, if your happy with the result and had pleasure doing it then nothing else matters.

MD
 
Heather Kay

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
As someone who made a jest about trying to join the Solder Free Brigade, I meant it in a jocular fashion.

A clean build is something to aspire to, and it's something I'm always aiming for. My personal goal is to use minimal solder to make a good joint, so I don't need to spend ages with scrapers and files later. Then again, if the joint will not be seen again, what does it matter?

I hope my levity didn't imply that being "solder free" was some mark of elitism among builders. That was never my intention.
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
No Heather and it wasn't taken as such, nor the others I'd read, but it did prompt ze leetle grey cells and that's never a bad thing.

It does look nice, but only for a short while, brass tarnishes really quickly, even if you wear gloves and do not touch it, Nickle Silver on the other hand is much better, and the 1:32 Bulleid test cab I built for Telford is still as shiny as the night before when I last cleaned it.

Your second point is much more valid, the less solder you apply, the less you have to clean off and solder isn't very strong, more solder does not equal a stronger joint.

Soldering is not welding, the solder does not melt and fuse the metals, well maybe on a sub molecular level, it merely sticks them together. The larger the gap to fill the more solder there is in there and the weaker the joint.

MD
 
Pencarrow

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
Seeing 'solder free' bare metal kit builds on various traders stands and exhibition displays put me off having a go for years.

I had no idea that these models had been laboriously scraped, cleaned and polished to within an inch of their lives. No idea that hours, and £s worth of cleaning materials, had been spent getting the model perfectly presented.

There was no way, I thought, I could ever achieve that. So I didn't bother.

Then one day the secret was let out. Most modellers do have messy joints and have to clean them up afterwards. Revelation.

I also feel that there are a fair few builders that don't let on the trials and tribulations of builds. Nor the mistakes and errors made. For a few I feel there is elitism in these actions with the aim of keeping themselves at the top of some pretend pile.

I was, and still am, very grateful to those on RMweb who helped and guided me through the black art of my first kit build. The knowledge sharing and generosity has been fantastic. The majority of those members are also on WT - a big thank you.

In my build threads I have been very open and honest. Errors, problems and botches admitted. Work shown first uncleaned up and some explanation of materials used to the cleaning. You'll be able to tell from photos of my 1366 that I'm a long way off 'no solder'.

I've had comments from some corners that they would never have admitted half of what I have and that I'm very brave.

I have the opposite thinking. Some of the best threads are those where people show how they work around problems and fix their errors. You learn a lot. I've certainly picked up loads.

Shiny, perfect models have their place - showcases, kit instructions and competitions. There has to be balance though. This is something to aspire to if you want to - not a standard to be measured against.

For me, if the solder won't show through the paint then it can stay put. I'm more concerned that the model looks like the prototype - I've seen more than a few solder perfect models that fail to capture the look of the real thing.

Each to his/her own.
 
simond

simond

Western Thunderer
I'm very much in line with Chris here, we're doing this for fun, so let's not beat ourselves up over it.

That said, seeing what is possible & has been achieved by the "no-solder-brigade" is inspiring to try to improve my technique. It's quite obvious that not putting lots on will lead to not having to scrape as much off - I think this particular revelation occurred to me quite recently in my modelling career, and I suspect it might have been Chaz of Dock Green fame that sowed that particular seed.

I'd also say that the work involved in building a kit is very much dependent on the work the kit supplier put in to start with. Of the 12 or so locos I've built, Mr Finney's 47xx stands out as being the very, very best by a country mile, in terms of fit & design. (And the others weren't all bad, though my 1366 was more than a bit of a pig!) So, if the kit's good, you're in with a chance of the visible fit & finish being rather better than something where the tabs flap around in the slots like an outhouse door in a gale.

Cleanliness, good flux, hot iron, and practice, practice, practice seem to be the other key factors. Once I've got the basics of my loco shed layout together, I have another couple of kits to build. Knowing their origins, I am confident that I won't face the unreasonable challenges that Chris' 1366 threw up. And I'll try to improve my technique a bit too.

And seeing what some other modellers achieve in their workshops, in terms of clever machining (David, I'm talking about you!) is a bit of an inspiration too.

Of course, there is a question of having enough patience (and time) to make all the parts you scrap before you make the part you're happy with. But most of all, just enjoy it.

Best
Simon
 
Yorkshire Dave

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
mickoo said:
The choice of material has an impact, Nickle Silver transmits heat much better and less solder flows further and cleaner than it does on brass,
Click to expand...

Although not directly related to soldering per se - I'm curious as why are most kits produced in brass rather than nickel silver if the latter is easier to solder and work with? Is it a question of cost, etching processes or the apparent blinkered approach 'brass has always been used and it shall remain so'.

Perhaps we should be thankful kits are not made entirely of aluminium otherwise we'll require MIG and TIG welding stations.
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Even less so these days, some gauges are nearly the same price, but yes brass is generally cheaper and like for like easier to work, especially for bending and shaping.

Brass is about twice as soft as Nickle Silver, so a 15 Thou firebox in brass can be just less than 10 Thou in Nickle Silver and retain the same strength and be about the same level of hardness to shape and form.

The 7mm Bulleid cab is 15 Thou brass and the first 1:32 test cab was scaled up to 25 Thou Nickle Silver, couldn't bend the thing, even with half etch relief lines, so test two reverted back to 15 Thou and it was much better to work with.

MD
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Dave,
There are also lots of locos that have brass beading, controls and details; producing those parts in brass makes sense, and for things like splashers could be a fair chunk of the model.
Steph
 
Healey Mills

Healey Mills

Western Thunderer
Ooooo I think I fall into the 'No Solder' brigade :D

I do envy and look on in admiration of those that build kits using brass, metals etc and make them look so elegant, even before paint. But as Chris et al have alluded to earlier, there are tricks and tips to be learnt. I guess like anything else, it's practice, practice, practice!

Nice thread Mick.

Cheers
Lee
 
richard carr

richard carr

Western Thunderer
I have to say that I aspire to the no solder brigade, but I'm a long way from getting there.

We should all remember though that generally the less solder in a joint the better the joint will be.

Richard
 
Yorkshire Dave

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Steph Dale said:
There are also lots of locos that have brass beading, controls and details; producing those parts in brass makes sense, and for things like splashers could be a fair chunk of the model.
Click to expand...

This could be a debate in itself so I'll desist and go back inside the triangle and conform. Not :D.

On a light hearted note with my chemistry hat on :rant:Nickle?:rant:. It's Nickel.....:thumbs:.
 
iak63

iak63

Western Thunderer
Well my soldering is passable but it's the Nickel allergy I can do without...
Wibbling furiously again now!
 
FiftyFourA

FiftyFourA

Western Thunderer
As one of the people who has recently made a 'crack' about 'no solder' building, I would be really upset if someone took my comments in the wrong way. It was meant as admiration for a piece of very good workmanship from someone who has been soldering for 40 years or so and as an inspiration to try, as we all do around here, to improve.

Since my accident in December 2014 I have had to go back and re-learn how to solder with a limited range of hand movement (part of the reason for buying one of Mr Watermans plastic kits) so this type of work gives me somethig to aim for - long may it be shown in these pages.

Peter
 
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