Kane Clements
Active Member
My Open cab maroon was tested by L & B. Run in last night. Sweet. Bombay from Rails arrived yesterday. Again run in and smooth. Lucked in! Both DC.
Tales from The Room of Doom. Dipping a toe in various bucolic backwaters.
- Thread starter Flaxfield
- Start date
Captain Kernow
Western Thunderer
I gave my open cab red one a good running in on the DRAG test track last night and it seemed quite a sweet running. Will probably put it on the rolling road too, together with the others.
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
An update...of sorts.
I chatted with Rapido today. Very supportive and very concerned that there are issues with these. The return of the sick lame and lazy has been arranged and I have just had an update that my noisy SE&CR 331 is enroute.
Perhaps of note, I tested a sound fitted job in work. Perfect. A most superb runner with none of the gremlins that the DCC ready jobs that I have had contact with.
Sadly, we do not have any in stock that I would be interested in.....but there may be a plan.
R
I chatted with Rapido today. Very supportive and very concerned that there are issues with these. The return of the sick lame and lazy has been arranged and I have just had an update that my noisy SE&CR 331 is enroute.
Perhaps of note, I tested a sound fitted job in work. Perfect. A most superb runner with none of the gremlins that the DCC ready jobs that I have had contact with.
Sadly, we do not have any in stock that I would be interested in.....but there may be a plan.
R
paulhb
Western Thunderer
Good to hear Rapido are concerned about the issues. Acquired the red open top MW thinking would be a great addition to Ruyton after conversion and news at Railex about possibility of suitable wheels and axles was encouraging.
But but but….on the rollers for extensive running in and although it runs well when it gets going, it failed at any sort of smooth slow running and smooth start and stop. These are my basic requirements for any loco and must be achieved in DC. Extensive wheel cleaning and removal of much crud made little difference. When running (stumbling) slow there is also a sound that possibly indicates the worm and gears are out of sync.
Disappointing as it’s a lovely model but off back its going.
Paul
But but but….on the rollers for extensive running in and although it runs well when it gets going, it failed at any sort of smooth slow running and smooth start and stop. These are my basic requirements for any loco and must be achieved in DC. Extensive wheel cleaning and removal of much crud made little difference. When running (stumbling) slow there is also a sound that possibly indicates the worm and gears are out of sync.
Disappointing as it’s a lovely model but off back its going.
Paul
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Hi Paul.
I'm sorry to hear of your woes but in a perverse way, I'm glad that I am not alone in my concerns..
I have just bitten a rather large bullet, and buoyed by my sound fitted experience today, I've ordered sound fitted Bombay.
Fingers crossed this is not another example of throwing good money after bad but the running of the sound fitted Arthur was so good........
It was my original intention to go sound fitted from the outset, so perhaps all of this could have been avoided if one had stuck to plan A..........
We shall see......
Rob
John Bruce
Western Thunderer
After reading some of the forgoing I thought I'd give my MW a run as I've not even tried it since receiving it last Thursday. My initial check on my 00 industrial line was interesting in as much as it wasn't too bad forwards, but backwards whoaaa, terrible noise like a pickup catching spokes on a wheel. A quick visual check revealed nothing amiss so it was on to the rollers!
Around about half an hour each way and a retest on the track revealed the noise had gone but it's running still left something to be desired, so on to a comparison test against my Rapido fireless (which has not been run in to any degree at all) and I'm afraid it knocked spots off the MW certainly for quiet slow speed running. More running in is needed methinks.
John Bruce.
Around about half an hour each way and a retest on the track revealed the noise had gone but it's running still left something to be desired, so on to a comparison test against my Rapido fireless (which has not been run in to any degree at all) and I'm afraid it knocked spots off the MW certainly for quiet slow speed running. More running in is needed methinks.
John Bruce.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
After reading the tales of woe it appears to me there is something more fundamental at work and manufacturers need to take a step back to look at significantly improving their quality control processes at the factory before the models are released and not rely upon the retailer and customer to subsequently find a an inferior model. From what I can gather it's not the first time this has occurred with Rapido and others, and granted there are 'Friday afternoon' models but with some manufacturers it appears every day is a Friday.
From my own observations I think another contributory factor is that a lot of new models are over-engineered and over-designed, with access for maintenance and decoder installation either appearing as afterthought or made unnecessarily inconvenient. Especially when there are consumers with mixed abilities and skills.
I experienced an issue recently when my dad complained about a poor running brand new Rapido SECR O1. When I overhauled it for him the problem turned out to be the powdery residue left by the chemical blackening on the tender wheels, which after cleaning resolved the issue. In my opinion this should have been picked up by quality control and dealt with at the factory - not the end user.
From my own observations I think another contributory factor is that a lot of new models are over-engineered and over-designed, with access for maintenance and decoder installation either appearing as afterthought or made unnecessarily inconvenient. Especially when there are consumers with mixed abilities and skills.
I experienced an issue recently when my dad complained about a poor running brand new Rapido SECR O1. When I overhauled it for him the problem turned out to be the powdery residue left by the chemical blackening on the tender wheels, which after cleaning resolved the issue. In my opinion this should have been picked up by quality control and dealt with at the factory - not the end user.
My DC 'Arthur' arrived today and with some trepidation I unpacked it and put it on my short length of test track.
It is lovely, smooth and quiet in both directions straight from the box.
There is some excess oil on the keeper plate but I rubbed a tissue over the wheels and there was hardly any dirt.
Rodney
It is lovely, smooth and quiet in both directions straight from the box.
There is some excess oil on the keeper plate but I rubbed a tissue over the wheels and there was hardly any dirt.
Rodney
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Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Morning all.
Yesterday saw three sound fitted Manning Wardles arrive.
Yesterday evening saw three sound fitted Manning Wardles tested........
All eighteen wheels cleaned, treads and backs.
1x Bombay immediately bunny hopped down the the track at slow speed in forward. Given over an hour in both directions on the rollers. No change. Back in box. Going back.
1x Bombay travelled less than 12inches, shed crank pin. Locked up. Replaced crankpin. Reasonably smooth but tad noisey. More running in needed.
1x SE&CR. Reasonably quiet but noticeably surging in forwards at slow speed. Run in for a couple of hours. No change. Probably going back but further running in planned for today.
On a positive, the sound fine is good but the enthusiasm for these lovely looking locos is starting to go.
Rob
Yesterday saw three sound fitted Manning Wardles arrive.
Yesterday evening saw three sound fitted Manning Wardles tested........
All eighteen wheels cleaned, treads and backs.
1x Bombay immediately bunny hopped down the the track at slow speed in forward. Given over an hour in both directions on the rollers. No change. Back in box. Going back.
1x Bombay travelled less than 12inches, shed crank pin. Locked up. Replaced crankpin. Reasonably smooth but tad noisey. More running in needed.
1x SE&CR. Reasonably quiet but noticeably surging in forwards at slow speed. Run in for a couple of hours. No change. Probably going back but further running in planned for today.
On a positive, the sound fine is good but the enthusiasm for these lovely looking locos is starting to go.
Rob
RichardG
Western Thunderer
I took an Epson printer to pieces a while ago, to salvage the motors. The printer was designed so some parts of the housing snap tight into position during manufacture and can never be removed without cutting or drilling. In other words, Epson have, by design, enforced what servicing can and cannot be done. You can change an ink cartidge, you cannot renew a drive belt.
So I suppose, Rapido are perfectly entitled to tell the owner of their loco that all servicing can be done without dismantling the model. The owner can clean the wheels, and put drops of oil on accessible pivots and bearings. Rapido sell DC and DCC versions, so there is no need to be opening up the product to add a decoder. Axle bearings can be factory-lubricated for the life of the product. A satisfactory life being a day or two beyond the two-year warranty. When the model fails, you can break it apart to salvage something useful and then, like the printer, take it to the dump to leave it with the WEEE recycling.
I think this is dreadful, but how a model train manufacturer chooses to make their products is up to them. What seems particularly galling is, a printer has planned obsolescence, but a model train could reasonably last for the lifetime of its owner. Still - we are not forced to buy them. Alternatives exist (at least in 00), in buying older models with less detail but more fun, and the potential to add some better detail or better wheels or whatever. I do hope, everyone who has a modern RTR loco gets plenty of enjoyment from their model, now and in the longer term (I have more than enough!), but the current trend does seem to be towards disposable products.
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76043
Western Thunderer
Hi Richard, what sort of motors do you get from a printer? I have one kicking around ...
Sorry for the highjack.
Tony
RichardG
Western Thunderer
They are 12 volt stepping motors.
simond
Western Thunderer
My BPRC Big Big Hymek runs very happily on two HP Deskjet (~12V permanent magnet) motors. But returning to the question, Richard’s points make sense, and it is frustrating to those of us who enjoy fixing stuff to be thwarted by devious design.
OTOH, it’s not unreasonable for a designer to create something without fasteners, particularly in injection moulded plastics, as clip together or ultrasonic welding are both cheaper than the screw and the person inserting and tightening it. And I’m sure anything that helps the margin on the product is worth considering, be it a batch of 1000 or 10,000.
of course, if as a manufacturer, you produce something that is not able to be stripped for repair or maintenance, you might end up with a lot of unusable stock on your hands, which you can only sell as “for spares or repair”, and that won’t help the business case at all.
OTOH, it’s not unreasonable for a designer to create something without fasteners, particularly in injection moulded plastics, as clip together or ultrasonic welding are both cheaper than the screw and the person inserting and tightening it. And I’m sure anything that helps the margin on the product is worth considering, be it a batch of 1000 or 10,000.
of course, if as a manufacturer, you produce something that is not able to be stripped for repair or maintenance, you might end up with a lot of unusable stock on your hands, which you can only sell as “for spares or repair”, and that won’t help the business case at all.
Mike Walker
Western Thunderer
Slightly off topic (sorry Rob) but when I were a spotty young engineering apprentice circa 1970 we had a lecture at college on welding from someone from British Leyland. He was showing how the rain strips were spot welded onto an Austin Maxi. One brave student (not me!) asked if they also used any sealant. No, came the answer to which the obvious follow up was: doesn't it rust? The visitor then explained that of course it will corrode but so long as it gets through the warranty period they don't care. All the manufactures were the same and for every one getting fed up with BL and moving to Ford there was one fed up with Ford and moving to Vauxhall and so on; it goes round in a cycle except, that was when the Japanese were starting to get a foot in the door. Yes, their early products rusted quicker than an ice cream melting in this week's heatwave but they quickly learnt the lesson.
Mine was a course in product design and we were constantly being told whatever we design, to build in obsolescence or we would ultimately be putting ourselves out of work. Ironically, it was that built-in obsolescence that ultimately did for much of British industry which couldn't compete with the far east using similar tactics.
Whilst I can sort of see the justification for this approach in mass-market consumer products which can be expected to have a fairly short life anyway but model railway locomotives are a different kettle of fish and, if looked after, should be expected to serve throughout their owner's lives just as Triang and HD ones did. Those still run happily today and if they need a good clean/service it's a simple task.
I do think that many models have been over complicated for the love of it by their designers.
Mine was a course in product design and we were constantly being told whatever we design, to build in obsolescence or we would ultimately be putting ourselves out of work. Ironically, it was that built-in obsolescence that ultimately did for much of British industry which couldn't compete with the far east using similar tactics.
Whilst I can sort of see the justification for this approach in mass-market consumer products which can be expected to have a fairly short life anyway but model railway locomotives are a different kettle of fish and, if looked after, should be expected to serve throughout their owner's lives just as Triang and HD ones did. Those still run happily today and if they need a good clean/service it's a simple task.
I do think that many models have been over complicated for the love of it by their designers.
paulhb
Western Thunderer
Hi Rob,
Sorry to hear about the continued issues. Real shame as it’s a lovely engine. Must admit after sending mine back I’m dithering over a replacement.
Regards Paul
Kane Clements
Active Member
Hi Rob.
Sorry that you have drawn the short straws, again! I fancied a third for a layout after the current one. I’m reticent about chancing my arm now.
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Thanks everyone.
The result of protracted running in today whilst in the shop is that there is no change to the SE&CR example which is now packed up ready for the trip home. I'll film it and then attach footage to the return submission.
Kernow were excellent but confirmed that they have no further examples of Bombay. Therefore at least one will be refunded.
I'll give the second Bombay a further run before deciding what to do with it, but again, Kernow were willing to accept it back if I'm not happy, so that will be all three sent back. In total, I've had seven attempts to obtain a well running model. The last time I had that type of issue was with the DJM 14xx..
So, sadly, the saga continues and I'm just about ready to admit defeat with these locos.
Rob
The result of protracted running in today whilst in the shop is that there is no change to the SE&CR example which is now packed up ready for the trip home. I'll film it and then attach footage to the return submission.
Kernow were excellent but confirmed that they have no further examples of Bombay. Therefore at least one will be refunded.
I'll give the second Bombay a further run before deciding what to do with it, but again, Kernow were willing to accept it back if I'm not happy, so that will be all three sent back. In total, I've had seven attempts to obtain a well running model. The last time I had that type of issue was with the DJM 14xx..
So, sadly, the saga continues and I'm just about ready to admit defeat with these locos.
Rob
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RichardG
Western Thunderer
Rob, these models seem to need more than mere running in. When I have had tight spots in RTR 00 locos, the problem has often been in the quartering. Can you detach the motor from a chassis? If so, you can then rotate the wheels and see if they are binding somewhere. Possibly, you can run the motor and still find the tight spot.
Most likely, one side rod will be tight on one crankpin at the tight spot. This is the wheel you need to rotate on its axle, in the direction to ease the tightness. I have found, wearing kitchen rubber gloves gives me enough purchase to twist wheels from Bachmann, maybe the Rapido ones are similar. You can judge quartering by sighting through the wheel spokes.
Make sure you don't leave marks the wheels. So if you still end up sending it back, the vendor has the option to sort things out and sell the model as refurbished to someone else.