Kevin Johnson
Active Member
Rob the colours of the Wainwright liveried P Class locos are very nice.
Tales from The Room of Doom. Dipping a toe in various bucolic backwaters.
- Thread starter Flaxfield
- Start date
simond
Western Thunderer
Well, young sir was some three weeks late as it was.
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Hi Kevin.
Indeed they are. The photo was quite poor but the livery is lovely. I've mentioned before my desire to give the SE&CR ' collection ' a proper home, as in, use them.
Bringing them together like this emphasises the need for this.
Here's an enhanced view taken some years ago on Bleat Wharf.
Rob
Kevin Johnson
Active Member
Rob thanks for sharing.
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Given the number of SECR locos now available - Stewarts Lane or Bricklayers Arms spring to mind as proper homes large enough for them to flaunt their brass domes.
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Given the number of SECR locos now available - Stewarts Lane or Bricklayers Arms spring to mind as proper homes large enough for them to flaunt their brass domes.
Sadly, whilst an excellent solution, other than an interesting display piece, engine shed layouts don't do much for me at all...............but it might make an interesting display piece..........damn..............
Where is my book on South Eastern section engine sheds..........?
Thanks Dave.........
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Morning all.
Well, the Rapido Evolution coaches are paid for and their delivery is eagerly awaited. There have been some quite vociferous debate on ' the other side' regarding both these and the former Hattons, now Accurascale Genesis coaches. I wouldn't want this post to ignite that same debate over here but this is how I see it.
I am happy with coaches from both camps. I'm not a kit builder and even if I were, I wouldn't attain a standard of finish that I would either be happy with, or one that would match the RTR SE&CR locos I have.
Photo by Rapido
So in my case, these coaches do exactly what the manufacturers set out to do. They allow me to assemble a passenger train that looks the part to tag behind my locos. Accurate ? No, of course not. I know that but anyone who sees them as such is missing the point.
They will not ( and never set out to ) satisfy the kit building purist. This is indeed 'cheque book pre-grouping ' and why not ?
There will, though not in my case, be those who acquire these coaches and go on to purchase kits to provide more accurate coaches but they will be in the minority. The majority who buy these coaches are like me, happy just to have something that 'looks the part'.
Photo by Rapido.
However, of note is the fact that in my time at Lord and Butler, I have seen a big increase not only in the availability of, but also in the purchase of, pre-grouping RTR models, including amongst our younger customers ( I'm talking school age here ) and a number have pre-ordered the Rapido coaches to accompany their locos.
I hesitate to call these game changers but there is no denying the fact that the Evolution/Genesis coaches are opening up tthe pre-grouping era to a much wider audience and on that basis, they deserve to succeed.
Rob
Well, the Rapido Evolution coaches are paid for and their delivery is eagerly awaited. There have been some quite vociferous debate on ' the other side' regarding both these and the former Hattons, now Accurascale Genesis coaches. I wouldn't want this post to ignite that same debate over here but this is how I see it.
I am happy with coaches from both camps. I'm not a kit builder and even if I were, I wouldn't attain a standard of finish that I would either be happy with, or one that would match the RTR SE&CR locos I have.
Photo by Rapido
So in my case, these coaches do exactly what the manufacturers set out to do. They allow me to assemble a passenger train that looks the part to tag behind my locos. Accurate ? No, of course not. I know that but anyone who sees them as such is missing the point.
They will not ( and never set out to ) satisfy the kit building purist. This is indeed 'cheque book pre-grouping ' and why not ?
There will, though not in my case, be those who acquire these coaches and go on to purchase kits to provide more accurate coaches but they will be in the minority. The majority who buy these coaches are like me, happy just to have something that 'looks the part'.
Photo by Rapido.
However, of note is the fact that in my time at Lord and Butler, I have seen a big increase not only in the availability of, but also in the purchase of, pre-grouping RTR models, including amongst our younger customers ( I'm talking school age here ) and a number have pre-ordered the Rapido coaches to accompany their locos.
I hesitate to call these game changers but there is no denying the fact that the Evolution/Genesis coaches are opening up tthe pre-grouping era to a much wider audience and on that basis, they deserve to succeed.
Rob
simond
Western Thunderer
Coaches are a pain. They are as difficult, and take nigh as long to build as a loco, they’re big & fragile, they typically have intricate & fiddly paint jobs and you can’t usually hide faults under weathering, and you need at least three for every loco, and possibly ten or more for some.
I can’t comment on how accurate or not these are, but they’re certainly eye-catching.
I can’t comment on how accurate or not these are, but they’re certainly eye-catching.
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Yes, I suspect this is something that one could debate endlessly and never reach a conclusion. Rapido have obviously gone to a lot of effort to create a range of coaches with several different styles of items such as roofs (clerestory, arc etc) but none of them are genuine models of any real prototype. Presumably their thinking is that the pre grouping market is too small and diverse to otherwise make money. Other manufacturers, however, have created models of genuine pre grouping coaching stock. Interestingly, the prices are similar, so the only benefit to the consumer is having a coach in ‘your’ company’s livery. An alternative approach could be to model a real prototype (so pleasing the modellers of that company) and then painting it in different liveries. As I said, many ways to skin a cat and I’ll own they do look pretty. Personally, though, I’ll stick to my lonely furrow and keep making the etched brass ones… (each to their own!).
Nigel
Nigel
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Ah ! Now, Nigel. You are in the minority, in that there are many who think they can, but few who actually do take an etched brass kit and produce a finished coach to a standard I would be happy with. You do and that is the point I make. Yes, for some it's the doing that counts and I admire anyone who ploughs that particular furrow, what ever the end result.
But it's not for me and it's people like me for whom these coaches are, in many ways, a god send.
Rob
Andrew Young
Western Thunderer
Agree with your comments regarding the new carriages.
My Dad is now in his 80’s and a lifelong North Eastern modeller, modelling the railway of his youth around Harrogate when the DMUs replaced steam.
He’d built a model of Harrogate in the attic of the old family home but now they’ve downsized to a bungalow there is no room for it. So we are embarking on a smaller Branchline layout based on Pateley Bridge to keep him happy. He’s had a pair of D&S North Eastern kits in his stash for decades that are in the too difficult pile for both of us. I’ve pre-ordered a pair of the North Eastern versions of these which tips the balance to make pre-grouping North Eastern viable and he’s followed this up with purchasing versions of the G5 and J26 in their North Eastern finery. All extra income for the model trade that wouldn’t have occurred without the addition of this carriage range.
Looking forward to seeing what you do with your SECR items. They are wonderfully colourful!
Andrew
My Dad is now in his 80’s and a lifelong North Eastern modeller, modelling the railway of his youth around Harrogate when the DMUs replaced steam.
He’d built a model of Harrogate in the attic of the old family home but now they’ve downsized to a bungalow there is no room for it. So we are embarking on a smaller Branchline layout based on Pateley Bridge to keep him happy. He’s had a pair of D&S North Eastern kits in his stash for decades that are in the too difficult pile for both of us. I’ve pre-ordered a pair of the North Eastern versions of these which tips the balance to make pre-grouping North Eastern viable and he’s followed this up with purchasing versions of the G5 and J26 in their North Eastern finery. All extra income for the model trade that wouldn’t have occurred without the addition of this carriage range.
Looking forward to seeing what you do with your SECR items. They are wonderfully colourful!
Andrew
Mike Walker
Western Thunderer
Interesting and encouraging for the hobby's future to hear of school-age kids buying pre-grouping models.
I haven’t seen examples of the Rapido Evolution stock yet and I’m not a potential customer. The coaches look very nice in photographs.
My comment would be ‘nothing new under the sun’.
Faced with same problem of many similar-ish but different coaches carrying multiple different liveries, and needing sales sufficient to recoup the capital cost of tooling, Bassett-Lowke did exactly what Rapido have done. In 1909.
The 1909 Bassett-Lowke coaches were lithographed tinplate and made by Carette. The dimensions, under-frames, bogies and overall layouts of the full brake and 1st/3rd were identical for the different Railway companies represented: MR, LSWR, LNWR, GWR and GNR (all made in gauges 0 and 1). The windows were stamped out and the shape varied, specifically the MR windows differed from the others. Some companies’ full brakes had windows in the van doors, others didn’t. The duckets on the brake coaches were separate pressings and varied in shape in accordance with the real companies’ practice. The coach ends were produced in two versions to allow either an elliptical roof (LSW, LNW, GN) or clerestory roof (GW and Midland). The coaches were slightly shorter than scale but beautifully printed. The printed representation of the livery and panelling accurately copied the respective company styles. The approach used for the coaches made it economically possible to produce worthy trains for the various contemporary scale model locomotives offered by Bassett-Lowke.
I wonder if Rapido are aware of the long history of using the same approach to address the same problem?
Martin
Edited shortly after posting to correct my error of forgetting the B-L MR coaches, specifically, were given distinctively shaped window apertures. Sorry!
My comment would be ‘nothing new under the sun’.
Faced with same problem of many similar-ish but different coaches carrying multiple different liveries, and needing sales sufficient to recoup the capital cost of tooling, Bassett-Lowke did exactly what Rapido have done. In 1909.
The 1909 Bassett-Lowke coaches were lithographed tinplate and made by Carette. The dimensions, under-frames, bogies and overall layouts of the full brake and 1st/3rd were identical for the different Railway companies represented: MR, LSWR, LNWR, GWR and GNR (all made in gauges 0 and 1). The windows were stamped out and the shape varied, specifically the MR windows differed from the others. Some companies’ full brakes had windows in the van doors, others didn’t. The duckets on the brake coaches were separate pressings and varied in shape in accordance with the real companies’ practice. The coach ends were produced in two versions to allow either an elliptical roof (LSW, LNW, GN) or clerestory roof (GW and Midland). The coaches were slightly shorter than scale but beautifully printed. The printed representation of the livery and panelling accurately copied the respective company styles. The approach used for the coaches made it economically possible to produce worthy trains for the various contemporary scale model locomotives offered by Bassett-Lowke.
I wonder if Rapido are aware of the long history of using the same approach to address the same problem?
Martin
Edited shortly after posting to correct my error of forgetting the B-L MR coaches, specifically, were given distinctively shaped window apertures. Sorry!
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Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
Knowing the boys and girls at Rapido as I do, they will be aware of the similarities with their approach and that of Bassett-Lowke, and in general terms, there's very little that hasn't been done before.
From speaking to them at an early stage in the project, they were simply looking to continue the generic approach of Hattons to produce a complimentary product. In fact, Hattons were apparently looking at bogie coaches themselves, given the success of their Genesis range.
Rob
Willl
Western Thunderer
Couldn't agree more Rob. I've built one etched coach, and frankly it wasn't for me. I enjoy wagons and locos but coaches involve many repetitive tasks and the interiors are very fiddly. I also fall into the camp who can rarely identify a given coach beyond the company and livery. The evolution coaches, complimented by the Bachmann Birdcages and Genesis models, are very much good enough for me.
I'm also very much taken by the range of colourful liveries. I have no need for a Highland or Cambrian coach, but the genesis and evolution examples in these liveries are dangerously tempting... We've also seen time and again how pre-grouping liveries often outsell comparable grouping models, so I'm sure they will do well. On your comment around pre-grouping selling well with the younger generation, I can certainly relate that my encounters with SECR and LBCSR stock on preserved railways make me far more interested in pre-grouping than the once-dominant BR steam era (even if I may not fall into the aforementioned school age group)
Will
I'm also very much taken by the range of colourful liveries. I have no need for a Highland or Cambrian coach, but the genesis and evolution examples in these liveries are dangerously tempting... We've also seen time and again how pre-grouping liveries often outsell comparable grouping models, so I'm sure they will do well. On your comment around pre-grouping selling well with the younger generation, I can certainly relate that my encounters with SECR and LBCSR stock on preserved railways make me far more interested in pre-grouping than the once-dominant BR steam era (even if I may not fall into the aforementioned school age group)
Will
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
As you say Rob these are not for the purist but overall they are a good move to allow a representative pre-grouping train to be assembled quickly with the minimum of fuss, added to which their main attraction is being short at 48'.
I see Rapido did make a few tweaks with the second batch of the Metropolitan variant to modify the door tops to the correct Metropolitan rounded profile and lose the ducket. This sort of approach would have not gone amiss with their SECR variant by including the distinctive birdcage on the brake end. Having looked at the Evolution range I am a bit surprised they didn't also tool a composite coach with the first class compartments sited in the centre of the coach flanked either side by second and/or third class compartments.
Alas, as is always the case these have come out decades after I had given up modelling the SECR, LBSCR and SR! As nice and colourful as they are, the SECR Evolution, Genesis and Hornby coaches are not for me as a SR pedant. In my 40 or so years of railway modelling, over the last decade or so I have observed a shift in manufacturers approaches whereby when a pre-grouping locomotive is released they are producing the rolling stock to match. In days gone by this was not the case or at least very rare.
At the end of the day it is down to individual choice as to whether one wants fidelity to the prototype or a generic coach to form a train that looks the part. For the latter the Hornby 4 & 6 wheel, Evolution and Genesis coaches easily make it possible and long may it continue.
I see Rapido did make a few tweaks with the second batch of the Metropolitan variant to modify the door tops to the correct Metropolitan rounded profile and lose the ducket. This sort of approach would have not gone amiss with their SECR variant by including the distinctive birdcage on the brake end. Having looked at the Evolution range I am a bit surprised they didn't also tool a composite coach with the first class compartments sited in the centre of the coach flanked either side by second and/or third class compartments.
Alas, as is always the case these have come out decades after I had given up modelling the SECR, LBSCR and SR! As nice and colourful as they are, the SECR Evolution, Genesis and Hornby coaches are not for me as a SR pedant. In my 40 or so years of railway modelling, over the last decade or so I have observed a shift in manufacturers approaches whereby when a pre-grouping locomotive is released they are producing the rolling stock to match. In days gone by this was not the case or at least very rare.
At the end of the day it is down to individual choice as to whether one wants fidelity to the prototype or a generic coach to form a train that looks the part. For the latter the Hornby 4 & 6 wheel, Evolution and Genesis coaches easily make it possible and long may it continue.
simond
Western Thunderer
I don’t know how much of a “purist” one needs to be to find these on the ok, or not-ok side of the acceptable line.
I do recall a very heated discussion on RMW regarding the Dapol 6W milk tanks which apparently are some kind of GW/LMS hybrid, which is a shame. Adrian Swain came in for a lot of quite abusive stick for simply telling the truth. Had they been one thing or the other, the “purist” could have made an informed decision whether to purchase or not, and those with more catholic tastes would have been none the wiser, and would therefore not have purchased fewer.
As it is I find myself in the purist camp on that one, and won’t buy them because there’s no pleasure in owning something that I know to be wrong. Apparently they’re quite difficult to fix too.
I do recall a very heated discussion on RMW regarding the Dapol 6W milk tanks which apparently are some kind of GW/LMS hybrid, which is a shame. Adrian Swain came in for a lot of quite abusive stick for simply telling the truth. Had they been one thing or the other, the “purist” could have made an informed decision whether to purchase or not, and those with more catholic tastes would have been none the wiser, and would therefore not have purchased fewer.
As it is I find myself in the purist camp on that one, and won’t buy them because there’s no pleasure in owning something that I know to be wrong. Apparently they’re quite difficult to fix too.
Flaxfield
Western Thunderer
As an aside from the coaches, I took delivery of a couple of Kernow LB&SCR opens today, courtesy of No.1 son.
These are destined for a LB&SCR project which is currently at the 'back of the envelope/beer mat/fag packet stage. Inspired by the Dyke branch the working title is Lambsdown.
Yes, I know it is Sheepesque but I have some very nice, 3D printed running in boards printed some time ago by a good friend, and it would be such a shame not to use them.
Thus far, I have the station building, small, platform mounted signal box, two locos ( E1 & E4 ) with a third ( Terrier ) on order and that is the complete loco fleet. There are three LB&SCR Dia 1369 round ended opens, two LB&SCR 1907 RCH seven plank opens already in stock with three LB&SCR Dia. 8 vans and two LB&SCR Billington brake vans on order, plus an Evolution 48ft Brake 3rd and 1st/3rd Composite due to arrive shortly.
Period is around 1911-1914, so Marsh livery.
This is the reality of the current RTR Pre-grouping scene
These are destined for a LB&SCR project which is currently at the 'back of the envelope/beer mat/fag packet stage. Inspired by the Dyke branch the working title is Lambsdown.
Yes, I know it is Sheepesque but I have some very nice, 3D printed running in boards printed some time ago by a good friend, and it would be such a shame not to use them.
Thus far, I have the station building, small, platform mounted signal box, two locos ( E1 & E4 ) with a third ( Terrier ) on order and that is the complete loco fleet. There are three LB&SCR Dia 1369 round ended opens, two LB&SCR 1907 RCH seven plank opens already in stock with three LB&SCR Dia. 8 vans and two LB&SCR Billington brake vans on order, plus an Evolution 48ft Brake 3rd and 1st/3rd Composite due to arrive shortly.
Period is around 1911-1914, so Marsh livery.
This is the reality of the current RTR Pre-grouping scene
Captain Kernow
Western Thunderer
It's an odd one this... I am also one who can't really tell the difference when it comes to older coaching stock, so if I were still running passenger trains, I don't think it would bother me.
Yet if someone brought out some under-length Mark 1 coaches, that would bother me a great deal and I wouldn't get any.
I have certain things that I get all pious about, such as pannier tanks and inwardly wince when I see an erroneous caption in a book describing a distant 74XX as a 57XX.
Yet on the other hand, my ignorance of the prototype extends to certain BR diesel types, so I am perfectly happy running a Mark 1 Bachmann Class 25 on my P4 layout. If it looked like a Black 5, I wouldn't run it, but to me it looks like a Class 25, so I am happy.
It's the little things...
