Optimum height for layouts at exibitions

[76043]

@Terry , Exactly as @cloggydog said, that's what the chap who I spoke to basically said. He carries one, but wishes he didn't have to. To be honest I can't imagine it's great viewing and I wouldn't want to either.
Tony

 

[Flaxfield]

Let's not forget that it is not only visitors who have medical issues. For many who choose to exhibit their layouts, ongoing medical issues dictate a suitable height at which their layouts are most comfortable to operate.

Rob

 

[Osgood]

I found some data on average viewing height (eye height) for standing children as they grow up (seems realistic but I cannot confirm its reliability).
From 13 boys grow a bit quicker than girls, the table below will give you an idea of what they can see.

Decide by experiment the lowest viewing level at which your layout displays well (maybe 5" / 125mm above rail level?)
Decide upon the target audience minimum age and that will give you an idea of what level to set your layout.
Or use the table to inform you the age above which youngsters will be able to enjoy your layout at your chosen display height.



Given that 1m rail height seems to work for seated and wheelchair users, that would encompass youngsters aged 9 +.

 

[Man in black]

An interesting discussion here. All my exhibition layouts use the same trestles and so have a rail height of 41" which most adults and kids can view. We sit on bar stools behind or at the end of the layouts, but as we are getting older, we are thinking of lowering the height to 36" which would improve the view for smaller children, and allow the operators to sit on normal chairs.

We also watch the interaction of various children and often give them the controllers. The look on the parents faces as their children skilfully drive a few thousand pounds of O gauge trains is priceless, and it may get more children interested.

Kev and Maggie Smith.

 

[Terry]

At the risk of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons, what percentage of overall visitors to shows are made up of wheelchair users? Let me hazard a guess and say probably under one percent. Do we ignore the wishes/needs of the other ninety-nine percent, who may have no desire to bend or crouch to view every exhibit? As regards children, personally I don't regard myself as a child entertainer. If I exhibit my models, it is in the hope of having intelligent conversations with other adults, hopefully fellow modellers, where an exchange of ideas and experiences can take place. That's not to say that I would dismiss out of hand any youngster who showed an interest. My choice of layout height reflects my personal preferences. Each to their own, as they say.

Terry

 

[Osgood]

The options are wide ranging if making your own board supports.
Certainly one benefit of those steel trestles is the inbuilt facility to set up at a range of viewing heights.
The standard height settings are, from lowest height, +50, +100, +200, +300, +400, +500mm.
For example, my trestle / board interface at 2nd ht setting gives a rail height of 1m - so it can be set to 0.95, 1.0, 1.05, 1.15, 1.25, 1.35, 1.45m.

For Mr. Average, an ideal rail height for low level viewing when standing would be 1.35m (if low level is the ideal height for viewing the layout).

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I found some data on average viewing height (eye height) for standing children as they grow up (seems realistic but I cannot confirm its reliability).
From 13 boys grow a bit quicker than girls, the table below will give you an idea of what they can see.

Decide by experiment the lowest viewing level at which your layout displays well (maybe 5" / 125mm above rail level?)
Decide upon the target audience minimum age and that will give you an idea of what level to set your layout.
Or use the table to inform you the age above which youngsters will be able to enjoy your layout at your chosen display height.

View attachment 231646

Given that 1m rail height seems to work for seated and wheelchair users, that would encompass youngsters aged 9 +.

Suppose it depends if your a F/S or S7 child , a F/S one will be a couple of inches short of a full foot ! ......... ooops ! duck's under the baseboard !

 

[Tim Hale]

"At the risk of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons, what percentage of overall visitors to shows are made up of wheelchair users?"

And your point is what exactly?

There is no reason why a visitor cannot sit on chair and conduct a conservation with the operator.

Tim

 

[Eastsidepilot]

In all seriousness ( if I can be ) the height at which we display an exhibition layout in the end is going to be down to who ever built it, as with large group layouts such as Love Lane then it's down to a consensus of opinion amongst the members.
Final thought...this hobby has always involved the youngsters, I got involved as a young child, and we need them to keep it going otherwise it'll disappear so making allowances for them either with hop ups or a stool if the layout is at height should be thought about.

BBC Four - The Frost Report Is Back!, The Class Sketch

Col.

 

[PMP]

"At the risk of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons, what percentage of overall visitors to shows are made up of wheelchair users?"

And your point is what exactly?

There is no reason why a visitor cannot sit on chair and conduct a conservation with the operator.

Tim

I see where @Terry is coming from, hence liking his post. I can’t speak for him but I imagine like myself he has every sympathy with less able or disabled visitors to shows. My layouts are displayed ’high’, this is because that’s how they sit at home, they are designed and specifically built for home use. If they are invited to a show that’s a bonus, and I don’t do many. If I were building a layout specifically or primarily for exhibition use, then I would design it differently and (probably) display it at a lower height. As it is the sightlines particularly for S2 and S3, are critical for the operators to position stock go automatic uncoupling. Changing those sightlines and presentation for an occasional show for me isn’t practical. I’ll try and take a picture later on with S4.
I have had discussions with wheelchair users, two were of note. One was extremely hostile that because of the persons approach left me with very much the feeling. The other was polar opposite, even though they couldn’t see it, they were pleased to see it out, and one of the reasons they came to the show was to talk to me. They’d followed the socials

Pmp (@albionyard) • Instagram photos and videos

465 Followers, 403 Following, 1,535 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Pmp (@albionyard)

www.instagram.com

Albion Yard

Share your videos with friends, family and the world

youtube.com

Albion Yard

albionyard.com

Albion Yard

Albion Yard. 1,142 likes · 35 talking about this. Albion Yard blog is the result of writing about a OO layout of the same name, covering various models and techniques, to achive a high quality result.

www.facebook.com

Now I’m under no illusions that viewing a layout digitally is as good as seeing it close up, but that second interaction where they were happy that they could chat to me and other visitors could see it ‘properly’, told me there’s no easy answer. I do make sure that anyone who is interested is aware of the socials that are available. It’s up to the layout builder to build what they want. It’s up to an exhibition manager to decide if they take it or not.

 

[cloggydog]

At the risk of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons, what percentage of overall visitors to shows are made up of wheelchair users? Let me hazard a guess and say probably under one percent. Do we ignore the wishes/needs of the other ninety-nine percent, who may have no desire to bend or crouch to view every exhibit? As regards children, personally I don't regard myself as a child entertainer. If I exhibit my models, it is in the hope of having intelligent conversations with other adults, hopefully fellow modellers, where an exchange of ideas and experiences can take place. That's not to say that I would dismiss out of hand any youngster who showed an interest. My choice of layout height reflects my personal preferences. Each to their own, as they say.

Terry

Agreed it is a low percentage, but equally how may don't attend because they could not see half (or more) of the layouts?

We may not see ourselves as childrens' entertainers, but equally we cannot then complain about 'the death of the hobby' with no young new blood coming in. I've had intelligent conversations with young modellers (age 7 or 8 upwards) who really enjoyed the opportunity to operate a layout, it opens their eyes to something beyond the 6x 4 train set and at least one was inspired enough to start his own shunting puzzle layout.


Tim's OP was reflecting on how difficult he finds it to stand operating all day. Now, I'm a decade or two younger than Tim, but even I find it increasingly uncomfortable to stand operating for long periods, hence a decision to bring my layouts down to a more comfortable seated operating height. It is easier to do that with micro layouts, I grant you, but viewing a layout seated doesn't deny any one the opportunity to enjoy it.

 

[Terry]

"At the risk of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons, what percentage of overall visitors to shows are made up of wheelchair users?"

And your point is what exactly?

There is no reason why a visitor cannot sit on chair and conduct a conservation with the operator.

Tim

Whilst I have sympathy for anyone forced to use a wheelchair, my point is that if you exhibit every layout at a height suitable for the minority of visitors, the majority of visitors will be affected to some extent. This might take the form of bending or crouching etc., which can be uncomfortable for many people, or they will be forced to view the layout as if from a helicopter. Not the best view in my opinion. The truth is that there is no height which will be suitable for everybody, either operator or visitor. As you say Tim, there is no reason why a visitor cannot sit on a chair and conduct a conversation with the operator. But experience of visiting many shows tells me that the number of chairs will be restricted to two at most, and having secured a seat, many occupants will be reluctant to finish the conversation and move away, thereby allowing the next two visitors to sit and engage. Frustrated visitors may simply give up trying. As I said earlier, you should exhibit your layout at a height which will suit you. You can't please all the people all of the time.

Terry

 

[Osgood]

Well summed up Terry.

 

[Terry]

I have to say that this conversation has thrown up some interesting views and has also highlighted the problems with deciding on layout heights. And thanks to Tim for raising this issue. It has caused me to reflect on how a solution might be managed with regard to my present exhibition layout. If I may be permitted to show a picture of said exhibition layout...

​

The layout sits on wooden legs which are connected to each other with two cross-braces for stability. This assembly sits atop a six-foot table. The actual layout is not attached to the supporting frame and can be lifted off. It now occurs to me that, if circumstances require it, the layout could be lifted up, placed in front of the supporting frame, and displayed directly on the table top. It could be accomplished in less than a couple of minutes. Same time for the reverse procedure. Now there's a thought which I will float past my operating accomplice. We are exhibiting this coming weekend so may get the opportunity to give it a try.

Terry

 

[Osgood]

That would be a wonderful gesture for any wheelchair operators.
If there are several or small children too you could arrange a low-level time to accommodate them all.

 

[Terry]

That would be a wonderful gesture for any wheelchair operators.
If there are several or small children too you could arrange a low-level time to accommodate them all.

It has interesting possibilities. For instance, alternate the height periodically, say every hour. Hmm.. food for thought!

Terry

 

[Man in black]

At our most recent exhibition outing with Matlock Road in n gauge,we had reduced the viewing height to 36". We received many poitive comments from the public as most children, and all wheel chair users could see the entire layout, also we could sit on stools behind the layout and see over the backscene easier. All of our layout trestles have now been reduced to the same height.

 

[Lawrence Boul]

Interesting views. Track level at Rewanui is at 1400mm. (4' 7" odd - I had to look it up). Operated from the front.

The layout is intended for the entertainment of adults, but I do provide a step stool for the young and vertically challenged. Those in wheelchairs receive an apology. Everyone gets an explanation if they are interested. Those who struggle to bend probably appreciate it.

One matter not discussed here yet (as far as I've noticed) is design. Books on layout design will often talk about framing views, and theatrical principles like creating 'tension' by preventing the entire layout being viewed in one go. This is the approach that I'm trying to take - where it is not really possible to see the whole thing and each new viewpoint is a whole new experience. The trains deliberately go behind things. There is a fairly narrow viewing band where this works, and as you might expect the layout is set up so that my eyeline is within that band. There's an element of frustration in not being able to see everything, which drives one to make the effort to try, and this draws the viewer in. Reducing the height of the layout would adversely impact the experience for the average adult.

The experience of a layout is much more real if the viewer's eye height matches the eye height of the scale people populating the layout more or less. Steam engines look better from footplate level, and are relatively uninteresting from above. Images in the modelling press are almost exclusively from low angles for good reason - so it makes sense to display models to allow similar angles.

As an exhibition manager, it's a discussion that comes up from time to time. Our show generally has around 25 layouts and is directed at the public rather than hobbyists. If every layout were high it would be problematic. However there is considerable diversity, so all sighted attendees can see most of the show. The blind appreciate having the sound system turned up and being told what we are doing.

Rewanui is not finished yet, which reduces it's appeal, but I've noticed that some people barely glance while others watch for hours (literally) or come back repeatedly. Some very small children (on the step stool) are enthralled, others completely disinterested. I assume I'm pleasing some of the people all of the time, which I'm perfectly comfortable with, both as a layout operator and exhibition manager.

 

[PaulRhB]

A very vociferous modeller who used a mobility scooter would make demands when exhibiting and lambast high layouts on his blog threatening legal action. It never amounted to anything but did create a lot of bad feelings. These are personal layouts displayed on an invite, the location has to be accessible but the law doesn’t cover displays because it’s impossible to achieve. Should every sculpture and painting be created with a low viewing point in mind? You wouldn’t get any large artworks then.
Some understanding and compromise is required on both sides. I decided to make average track height 1m / 3ft 4in because it was child friendly and also worked for wheelchairs. It has the benefit of the legs fitting within the boards too on most layouts though I do use separate legs as well on some shaped boards.
At 6ft 4in I find low layouts with pelmets difficult to see and sitting layouts only work for a few at a time so I like higher layouts as it saves my back and yes that is a serious problem for tall people as they age. Even standing at the sink to do a big clear up after a family meal is uncomfortable for me but I haven’t tried to raise the kitchen units as I’m the extreme in this case.
The status quo works for the majority, there are enough using lower heights that help wheelchairs but may be too tall for smaller kids and enough at the 48-52” height that saves the back of the giants. It’s interesting which groups are vocal and which accept compromises have to be made often with similar numbers of official disabilities, just less visible.

 

[Willl]

A very vociferous modeller who used a mobility scooter would make demands when exhibiting and lambast high layouts on his blog threatening legal action. It never amounted to anything but did create a lot of bad feelings. These are personal layouts displayed on an invite, the location has to be accessible but the law doesn’t cover displays because it’s impossible to achieve. Should every sculpture and painting be created with a low viewing point in mind? You wouldn’t get any large artworks then.
Some understanding and compromise is required on both sides. I decided to make average track height 1m / 3ft 4in because it was child friendly and also worked for wheelchairs. It has the benefit of the legs fitting within the boards too on most layouts though I do use separate legs as well on some shaped boards.
At 6ft 4in I find low layouts with pelmets difficult to see and sitting layouts only work for a few at a time so I like higher layouts as it saves my back and yes that is a serious problem for tall people as they age. Even standing at the sink to do a big clear up after a family meal is uncomfortable for me but I haven’t tried to raise the kitchen units as I’m the extreme in this case.
The status quo works for the majority, there are enough using lower heights that help wheelchairs but may be too tall for smaller kids and enough at the 48-52” height that saves the back of the giants. It’s interesting which groups are vocal and which accept compromises have to be made often with similar numbers of official disabilities, just less visible.

Wholeheartedly agree Paul. I display Rye Sands at the highest setting on my Wickes trestles - no idea how tall this actually is but its around eyelevel for an adult of average height.

I have had the odd complaint but the harsh truth is that as a taller person, operating stooped over for 8 hours (or longer for a 2 day show) would cause me significant discomfort. Then there's the three-links to consider, which would be physically impossible to use if my layout was displayed at a lower height, given it has a solid "roof"! I think visitors can be quick to forget that we bring our layouts to shows voluntarily, sometimesat cost to ourselves. Selfish as it sounds, this means that the operator's comfort is a major consideration - after all, we're likely to spend far longer beside the layout than any of the viewing public!

Something I have seen done and would love to try is using an adjustable standing desk to display the layout. They're not the most portable, but this really would be the best of both worlds

Will