Holderness Drain North - Roundy - Roundy?

[7mmMick]

So after the Brightwell meeting and the up and coming York Show this weekend my mojo has well and truely had a rocket up its backend after around six months of not lifting a fingure. I'm starting to think about the next few years and the production of a layout. My chosen location, which I have been researching on and off is the above. In simple terms it is a section of sidings which were used as a means of stacking imported timber from King George Dock, Hull whilst it awaited distribution around the Country. As you can see from the pictutres the location is on a curve;







The period modelled will be 1948-52 so the Oil Burner won't be there, sorry lads

So as the title suggets I'm considering a roundy, roundy set up. I'm not talking a set up as big as Heyside, or as complex. All I'm after is a bit of an upgrade from the S7 test track which was at Telford and nothing more added on to the senic side than what you see in the photo's. It will, hopefully be interesting enough to watch but not too many buildings for me to make and not a lorry load of stock needed. The roundy roundy set up will lend itself to not having to handle stock as there will be lots of empty workings one way and full the other (which would mean removable loads if it weren't roundy roundy and I'm not a massice fan ) So my question is, how much space will I need, to produce a curve which looks right in S7 and is not too tight for 0-8-0 loco's??

I have to look at this now as the next two to three years will see us move to somewhere where we will stay and see the kids through school and having the space requirements firmly in my mind now will be really valuable.

Cheers Mick

 

[Dikitriki]

I'm not talking a set up as big as Heyside.

Cheers Mick

Sorry to say this Mick, but you are - if you are to accomplish your aims.

Heyside is 'only' 14' wide, and that won't get you even a 7' radius curve, let alone any crossings on the curve.

Heyside is 31' long, and while you could maybe reduce the length, you don't want to crowd your scene as the prototype is very open.

I will be interested to see what people come up with - I am a lousy layout planner - but I will take a bet that it will have to occupy a bigger footprint than Heyside.

Start thinking big garden or an old barn and imminent bankruptcy

Cheers

Richard

 

[SimonT]

Mick,
like Richard, I have previous and I too suspect that you will get towards the Heyside size. As for curves, The Brute (my 42XX with adopted name after Heather and Micks photos) goes around the minimum 75" radius curve on the layout. I have to fix the ability of the pony truck wheel to occasionally short on the cylinder block by reducing the float designed into the pivot.

The photos show that the layout will have atmosphere. In my opinion, it would be well worth the effort.

Atb

Simon

 

[Dog Star]

Mick, I absolutely love the idea, potential for oodles of atmosphere and the thought of consolidations slogging round the curve gets hair standing on end (with sound of course!).

Back to reality. If you work to (say) a minimum radius of 7'0" for the main line then you are talking about a footprint of 16'0" square to encompass just the roundy-roundy and that is without any representation of the east sidings. For the moment, consider the "A" (east) sidings to require a span of 2'0"... and something comparable for a (fiddle) yard at the other end of the layout... you are now at 20' x 16' without any space around the outer edge of the boards. Seems to me that you need to be considering a baseboard footprint of at least 30' x 20' in a space of (say) 40' x 25'.

I think that you need to write down the space requirements for the different parts of the dream, much as I have started above, and then talk to a person who has the necessary Templot skills to draft an initial plan. The draft does not need to have every turnout and every siding - careful study of the way the prototype was set out is going to highlight the key elements, such as (the minimum length of) the plain line approach to the signal box in the 3rd pikkie... the width of the "A" sidings... the number of tracks in the "B" sidings as that dictates the sharpest divergence of turnouts in that yard... the length of likely services as that is going to impact on the length of the fiddle yard (which might stretch the overall width of the layout).

You could move the timescale back to H&BR times as that could see smaller locos and thereby ease the minimum curve radius.

regards, Graham

 

[Tony West]

Mick,
great idea, go for it !!!.
Some sage advice from Graham....he knows a bit about these things you know !!!.
Cheers Tony

 

[Dog Star]

Mick,

I have not been able to find a map of the railways in this area... please post some details of the route and of the other main line which appears in the background to your photos.

Thinking on your idea a bit more - some questions came to mind and the answers might help to firm up on the intended layout:-

* what passenger services worked through the section?
* how did the tiumber arrive in the stacking grounds? how did the timber leave?
* what wagons were used for the timber traffic? (assuming that timber "bogies" were not allowed out of the docks)
* what other freight / goods services worked past the yards?

What workings used the lines in the background? How could those lines be worked into the plan? (maybe as a real roundy-roundy being round and round the drain).

The reason that I ask is that the idea as expressed in the first post is going to be a big ask and one which shall be with you for many years hence the operating potential has got to sustain your interest for ten to twenty years.

regards, Graham

 

[Heather Kay]

Side play and buffer locking. Sounds like fun.

 

[Dog Star]

Mick, if your thinking about exhibiting then right from the start consider how your going to move it and how the bits are going to be protected or joined together for moving etc.

What Mickoo says is so relevant when considering how to partition a layout for setting up / taking down. Pempoul was at our club show this year and I noticed that the layout arrived in several tall cases, the cases were on castor wheels of around 6" diameter so easy to push and to ride over the thresholds (of the hall). All of the layout boards were "on-end" in the cases and held apart by wood strips attached to the roof / floor of a case. Gordon said that he had built the cases before the baseboards so that he had somewhere to store the layout during construction - a great idea (see MRJ in 2008 for more info).

regards, Graham

 

[SimonT]

Mickoo - Guilty as charged. The new layout is an antidote to 7Tonne truck for the Beeg. The foam is wooden floor underlay from B & Q attached with heavy duty carpet spray. One pack will last a lifetime.

Mick - Graham and Mickoo make a really important point about taking big trainsets out. The layout and the packing have to be designed in from the beginning. The really big boards on the Beeg are on castors and are rolled off the truck and into the hall. The whole layout sits on a support structure which is also on castors to allow positioning in the exhibition hall. Use 100mm castors and build in a a very strong support structure. Most of the individual bits that build up to be the layout are sized to fit on the truck tail lift. The one that is too big has intermediate castors so that some of the load is taken by the lift and some by the two chaps who carry the weight of the bit that sticks outs as it goes up and down. At Nottingham we were away 70 minutes after the show closed.

Minimum radius - I am forced to use 75" because the shed wasn't built to the width that I wanted (long family story). I don't like it being that tight and have to do a lot of fudging to get things like Peaks to go around. The curve is lead into by a long transition and is check railed. The check rail gap is wider than the crossing flange way to allow the locos to bend around the curve.

I hope you go for it.

SimonT

 

[Dog Star]

Mick - just think of the report banners when you announce the first meeting of your local S7 Group... "east meets west down the drain". Rob Pulham is not far away and he has a liking for S7 wagons whilst Simon Caggers is just a bike ride north of you and is building NER stuff. You might have this made in terms of support (on castors of course).

regards, Graham

 

[john lewsey]

I can just see those hoppers

 

[Suddaby]

Wow Mick, that brings back memories. I used to go "spotting" there in the mid 60's, on my little bike. Lived in Portobello St at the time, and used to go and cycle to either that bridge (photo 3), or sometimes to Marfleet station. Mind you it was not without it's problems, as more than once had to push the bike back as some bright spark had let our tyres down!! The high spot,was seeing a green engine - I think it must have been a Jubilee - Mick Nich has a photo of one at Botanic Gardens level crossing.
Also, I was born in the "City Hospital" on one of your maps - better known as Hedon Road Maternity Hospital.
Good luck with this project, I will watch it with great interest.

Kevin

 

[Osgood]

.... The foam is wooden floor underlay from B & Q attached with heavy duty carpet spray….

3mm or 6mm, Simon?

Tony

 

[Osgood]

Thanks Mick. I started looking at this type of material - there is quite a variety. I guess if the backing paper is well stuck on it should be ok. A bit of experimentation called for, maybe?

 

[7mmMick]

Sorry to say this Mick, but you are - if you are to accomplish your aims.

Start thinking big garden or an old barn and imminent bankruptcy

Cheers

Richard

The more I think about it I think you're right, it will certainly be bigger but in another sense the senic side is much more sparse so I'm hoping to reduce some build time there. There's no doubt this will be a long term project and realistically I have to start thinking about it noe so we can more to somewhere that will accomodate said trainset ( don't tell SWMBO though ). I was thinking more like somewhere with an outbuilding or large garage which could be used. Earlier I looked through one of Gordan Gravett's books and he suggests a size of no less than 20ft by 35ft, which fits with what everyone has said really. And as for budget, I dread to think !

Mick,
The photos show that the layout will have atmosphere. In my opinion, it would be well worth the effort.

Atb

Simon

Thanks Simon, I have been planning in my head for a few years now and am excited about the prospect of drawing up track plans etc, I just hope it will be worth the effort. I'm sure it will be.

Mick, I absolutely love the idea, potential for oodles of atmosphere and the thought of consolidations slogging round the curve gets hair standing on end (with sound of course!).

Back to reality. If you work to (say) a minimum radius of 7'0" for the main line then you are talking about a footprint of 16'0" square to encompass just the roundy-roundy and that is without any representation of the east sidings. For the moment, consider the "A" (east) sidings to require a span of 2'0"... and something comparable for a (fiddle) yard at the other end of the layout... you are now at 20' x 16' without any space around the outer edge of the boards. Seems to me that you need to be considering a baseboard footprint of at least 30' x 20' in a space of (say) 40' x 25'.

I think that you need to write down the space requirements for the different parts of the dream, much as I have started above, and then talk to a person who has the necessary Templot skills to draft an initial plan. The draft does not need to have every turnout and every siding - careful study of the way the prototype was set out is going to highlight the key elements, such as (the minimum length of) the plain line approach to the signal box in the 3rd pikkie... the width of the "A" sidings... the number of tracks in the "B" sidings as that dictates the sharpest divergence of turnouts in that yard... the length of likely services as that is going to impact on the length of the fiddle yard (which might stretch the overall width of the layout).

You could move the timescale back to H&BR times as that could see smaller locos and thereby ease the minimum curve radius.

regards, Graham

Hi Graham,

Like you this project is all about the long coal trains slogging to and from the docks and the various workings by dock tanks in and around these sidings, for me this is my main draw to railway modelling and for that reason Holderness Drain was chosen as it is a goods only route, it has to be this period for me as I love the run down feel to the railway post war and the chance to model soon to be withdrawn NER and L&Y types that had given long and faithful service.

This section of line served King George Dock, which was built by the H&B and NER and known as the Joint Dock until Grouping. Looking at the first two pictures the up and down reception curve away to the right and climb to cross Hedom Road ( Which is the main road that still takes you to the ferry today ) by over bridge and then down into King George Dock. I believe the main traffic from here was imported timber, exported coal and grain.

The coal trains that worked in were all of end door type stock and all the doors faced towards the Dock as they were unloaded one at a time by hoists ( unlike other North East Docks which had staithes ) see here about three quarters of the way down;

http://hulldockbargeworld.weebly.com/king-george-dock.html

This unfortuately rules out hoppers for coal, however I can accomodate the chalk working from Hessle Quarry which was hoppers of the John Lewsey type and I'm waiting for him to do some more for me to copy. come on John.

Also of interest is that the empty coal wagons sometimes returned to their home pits loaded with timber pit props, some of which can be seen stacked in B sidings above. King George Dock was well nown for it's large grain silo and NER Grain Hoppers were worked from here block load, this being unusal as shortly after the train was broken up and sent around the country in ones and twos. Also tanks were worked through here to Saltend and at this time I assume it was all ex Air Ministry stock so there's loads of potential for a vast range of different stock. I'm hoping to work in some parcels stock also but passenger workings are off limits really.

This brings me onto the Witherensea branch, which is to the left in pictures one and two. As you suggest Graham this could be my passenger workings but right now I think it's a bridge too far. As the line reaches the over bridge in the far distance in picture two there is a station called Marfleet beyond, this could be modelled but at the moment there is no northern S7 group and I am all alone and don't wnat to burn myself out trying to plan this also.

I will bear in mind Graham's dimensions of 40ft x 25ft and begin the planning process in earnest to come up with a decent track plan and firm baseboard dimensions. And I think very sound advice from Mick, Simon, Graham and Richard about early planning for portability, the large cases on heavy duty castors sounds preferable to humping the boards about,

Thanks for all the replys so far everyone, great stuff

ATB Mick

 

[7mmMick]

Mick - just think of the report banners when you announce the first meeting of your local S7 Group... "east meets west down the drain". Rob Pulham is not far away and he has a liking for S7 wagons whilst Simon Caggers is just a bike ride north of you and is building NER stuff. You might have this made in terms of support (on castors of course).

regards, Graham

I'll keep trying to recruit Graham, you know me. We really do need a North East S7 Group

ATB Mick

 

[7mmMick]

I place 'playability' at the top of everything, or else what's the point...?

If the trains can't run, you might as well build a diorama....

At the risk of asking the obvious, how big is the S7 Test Track?

Also, it's quite something to realise that for UK outline, Heyside is actually about as small as a 7mm "mainline" roundy-roundy layout can be...

Couldn't agree more Jordan, we all love to play trains. Good point, does anyone know the dimensions of the S7 test track please?

Mick

 

[7mmMick]

Wow Mick, that brings back memories. I used to go "spotting" there in the mid 60's, on my little bike. Lived in Portobello St at the time, and used to go and cycle to either that bridge (photo 3), or sometimes to Marfleet station. Mind you it was not without it's problems, as more than once had to push the bike back as some bright spark had let our tyres down!! The high spot,was seeing a green engine - I think it must have been a Jubilee - Mick Nich has a photo of one at Botanic Gardens level crossing.
Also, I was born in the "City Hospital" on one of your maps - better known as Hedon Road Maternity Hospital.
Good luck with this project, I will watch it with great interest.

Kevin

I know what you mean Kevin, me and Mick keep meaning to go down and take some photos of the area now the double track is back and get a feel for the place. We will have to employ some security to do it though I think, otherwise the car will be on bricks when we get back It's great that you remeber steam there, what kind of workings do you remember going through? I would love to hear as much as you can remember, please feel free to PM if you wish

I need to fill in lots of gaps on how the timber was unloaded here and how long it stayed etc? Did vehicles access the grounds and remove some to local merchants? were the wagons unloaded by hand or machine? Mick has given me some rules to prove that dock shunter's were allowed to work wrong line from the Docks and propell trains into the sidings without a brake van, did you witness this taking place ? So many questions, you'll regret replying before

Mick,

I have not been able to find a map of the railways in this area... please post some details of the route and of the other main line which appears in the background to your photos.

Thinking on your idea a bit more - some questions came to mind and the answers might help to firm up on the intended layout:-

* what passenger services worked through the section?
* how did the tiumber arrive in the stacking grounds? how did the timber leave?
* what wagons were used for the timber traffic? (assuming that timber "bogies" were not allowed out of the docks)
* what other freight / goods services worked past the yards?

What workings used the lines in the background? How could those lines be worked into the plan? (maybe as a real roundy-roundy being round and round the drain).

The reason that I ask is that the idea as expressed in the first post is going to be a big ask and one which shall be with you for many years hence the operating potential has got to sustain your interest for ten to twenty years.

regards, Graham

I think I've covered most of these Graham but in short I'm hoping with teh large varity of goods trains and the almost exchange siding type feel to the operation it will keep me interested and also eventually others at shows, only time will tell?

ATB Mick

 

[SimonT]

3mm or 6mm, Simon?

Tony

3mm Tony. Everything is attached with heavy duty carpet glue from a can. Ballast, if it can be given the title, will be Artex with a tiny amount of grit in odd places.

Simon

 

[Dog Star]

... this project is all about the long coal trains slogging to and from the docks and the various workings by dock tanks in and around these sidings, for me this is my main draw to railway modelling and for that reason Holderness Drain was chosen as it is a goods only route, it has to be this period for me as I love the run down feel to the railway post war and the chance to model soon to be withdrawn NER and L&Y types that had given long and faithful service.

This section of line served King George Dock... I believe the main traffic from here was imported timber, exported coal and grain. The coal trains that worked in were all of end door type stock and all the doors faced towards the Dock as they were unloaded one at a time by hoists...

This unfortunately rules out hoppers for coal, however I can accomodate the chalk working from Hessle Quarry which was hoppers ...

Also of interest is that the empty coal wagons sometimes returned to their home pits loaded with timber pit props, some of which can be seen stacked in B sidings above.

This brings me onto the Witherensea branch, which is to the left in pictures one and two. As you suggest Graham this could be my passenger workings but right now I think it's a bridge too far. As the line reaches the over bridge in the far distance in picture two there is a station called Marfleet beyond, this could be modelled...

Mick,

I have extracted the major traffic flows from your post to use as a basis for a discussion to shape the plan. The core of the real Holderness Drain is that (a) the formations are on a curve and (b) there are sidings on the inside and on the outside of the curve (East and West sidings, omitting 'C' sidings for now). If you set the ruling radius of the main line to accomodate eight coupled engines then you may need to restrict access to the West sidings to those engine classes which can run over the turnouts in those sidings (turnouts in West siding are going to have a tighter radius than the main line). So consider providing a reception siding for the West yard and make that the ruling radius for the eight-coupled stock. Ah! (you say) What about the East sidings. As such are on the outside of the main line curve then the entry into those sidings is going to be greater than the ruling radius and ought to be comfortable for eight-coupled engines.

You might wish to consider a change in history at this point.... retain the timber yard facility for the West sidings and change the character of the East sidings. Rather than a fan of tracks which take up real estate how about replacing the sidings with two reception loops for block workings into the docks? You could run the empty grain wagons into the reception roads, detach the engine and work that away... with a subsequent light engine movement in to move the wagons down to the dock when there is space at the silos. What I am saying is that you do not need to have timber grounds on both sides of the line... you might be more interested in the arrangement of the facilities and what that offers in the way of operation. Taking this a step further, you might like to convert the 'C' sidings from being another timber ground to holding sidings for coal trains. Coal workings run past the signal box and into the reception siding for the East yard... and then reverse into the holding sidings under the watchful eye of the Bobby... engines get shut in the sidings until the time comes when a complete train can regain the main line and work down to the dock (noting that the 'C' yard is going to stretch the length of the layout and ensures that there is some straight plain line on the approach to the signal box).


Whatever you do, please retain the nice feature shown on one of those OS maps, that is the crossover between parallel sidings - about half way along the siding length - and that the
pairs of sidings are really loops!

As for the Withernesea branch, bend reality a bit and bend that trackwork run round the outside edge of the scene. If you plan for such a set of tracks now then there is nothing to say that you have to build that part of the layout. To draw up the plan without the Withernesea branch and provide an appropriate space for that plan is going to be an embarassment if and when you do decide to model some sort of passenger service.

I will bear in mind Graham's dimensions of 40ft x 25ft and begin the planning process in earnest to come up with a decent track plan and firm baseboard dimensions.

At the risk of eggs/granny/teach etc.. , think about the shape of the layout and the placement of facilities wthin the layout. Get the desired shape and adjust sizes to give the ruling radius... maybe start with a two track oval to represent the main line and where the curve of the inner track is about 7'6" - the extra 6" is to give you a fighting chance to include an 0-8-0 friendly reception road for the West sidings. Rough out the space for the tracks of the sidings / loops on the outside of the curve... show the space required to include a passenger service (although you might not need some platforms).

In passing, if the overall size is of the order of 40' x 25', so far we have been discussing just one corner / end of the Mick-Opus-Major, (the top right hand quadrant of a clock face)... what is at the other end? along the other side? Where is the tea-bar? Where is the modelling space? The comfy seats? The podium for photographers from the Model Railway Press?

regards, Graham