Heljan Diesel Outline 7mm Locos Motor Amps??

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi all,

I did do a quick search on here, as I know that we have touched on this subject before, yet I couldn't find anything

What I would like to know - as some mags have quoted various ratings for such - is what amps does a Heljan motor/motors draw?

In addition when two Heljan motors are working together what are the amps/combined amps?

I keep getting quoted 3amps (in terms of decoders et al.) from uncle Tom and all, yet one or two mags rated them at 1.5 amps for both motors working together??

Apologies if this has been asked/discussed before

Thanks in anticipation.

ATVB

CME

 

[Phill Dyson]

Hi CME

Never measured it myself, but from what I've read 2.5amps seems to be the often quoted figure, so I would have thought 3amps plus for decoders?.........maybe contact Howes for more info ?

Phill

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi CME

Never measured it myself, but from what I've read 2.5amps seems to be the often quoted figure, so I would have thought 3amps plus for decoders?.........maybe contact Howes for more info ?

Phill

Hi Phill

Many thanks - that sounds like good advice and the kinda vibe I have from various suppliers....

I wouldnt, at this time, know how to measure such, all of my electrical work, on RC stuff, cars/vans, railways, guitars is all self-taught and akin to painting-by-numbers .....I can usually cope with a wiring diagram or schematic if given the time (I have sussed-out our Hotwater & CH system over the past few years - water and electrics together!)

I was also wondering, if at low speed, for testing and pottering about under DC control, if my trusty 35 year old H&M Duette would power such up for a - very - short trip or two? (I think that the Duettes were rated at 1amp per 'channel'.....)?? I also have a Gaugemaster somewheres, yet not sure what that puts out

ATVB

CME

 

[mickoo]

Depends if that's stall/ max load current or normal running current, I'd not mess about with trying to get a decoder that 'just' copes and get the biggest you possibly can, might cost a few £ more initially but in the long run it'd be much cheaper if the marginal one went up in smoke. Loksound XL V4.0 will take 4A continuous and 5A peak for short durations, if it's for O gauge, that'd be the one to grab over the normal one....if Loksound is your prefered choice. Loksound also quotes overload protection so if it does get a surge should self protect itself, do others have this feature?

Regarding double motors or two locos, current would normally be assumed as twice a single load, however being as the load is halved then the current will be less.

Example 1 loco pulling 5Kg would pull 3A, two locos pulling 10Kg would be 6A, but two locos pulling 5Kg would probably be about 4.5A, although each loco is pulling half the load the current isnt half as there are mechanical losses and friction to be taken into account.

An Ameter would be your best tool to measure Amps, just place in series with your + power supply cable to the track but make sure you get the right one, if DCC (and I am assumining DCC is AC supply to the rails if all the blurb I've read is correct) then you'd need an AC Ameter, if normal DC control then a DC Ameter is required. There are plenty of hobby or electronic stores that sell small Ameters, a 5A one would do you just fine, you could splash out for a digital one but a moving coil one would be sufficient. One final point if your going to be running high currents then make sure your feed cables can take it, it's fine having a power supply that can push it out but few people use the right cable to feed the track, you'll know if you have the wrong size as it'll start to get a touch warm!

 

[TheSnapper]

Hi CME & Phill

IMHO Heljan motors ain't what they used to be! If you are talking Hymek & Class47, you may be right with 3.5 amps (although I've never measured it), but the later models are far less power-hungry.
I'm not sure exactly when the changes occured, but Dibateg & I have successfully used "00/H0" sized sound chips from Zimo & Loksound in our Heljan Class 20's with no problems at all. The Hymek & 47 definitely need bigger chips.
I suspect the Class26/33/37's etc have the same motors as the 20, which pull just over 1 amp max (apparently) . Maybe Heljan (or Howes or Tower) could shed some light on the subject?

HTH

Tim

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi Mickoo and Tim,

Thanks for your comments guys - much appreciated and by and large I concur

I have a Zimo 4 amp decoder which I can use for starters on a Hymek

I too have a feeling that Heljan have changed their motors - typical that I have Hymeks (the 37 maybe worth some thought though).

I was also of the understanding that the original Heljan locos/ models didnt have 'matched' motors - I know that we have discussed re-wiring them 'in parallel' and 'in series' on WT before.....

When I am next on the blower with any of those suppliers I will ask

ATVB

CME

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Ah!! A Non-DCC Question - I can help there, and feel part of the team!!
I've run O Scale locos including the HJ Hymek and old Atlas (which have power-hungry Pitman motors) with a 2Amp controller, and also with a 1.5Amp handheld controller fed from a 2Amp 18vAC supply, with no problems at the slow speeds a Shunty-Plank has room for..... BUT.... using a Duette was not so successful with these locos - 1Amp doesn't seem to be quite enough -although for the latest HJ locos it sounds like you might get away with it. If it can run O Scale locos, slow will be the only speed anyway....
IIRC the proposed Dapol 08 will have an OO motor..?? That might well run with a Duette.

Hi Jordan

Welcome aboard and I have to say that you have pretty much covered it on the DC front, many thanks for that

Shunty Plank is what I had in mind at the mo, yet I guess loco wise, I shall have to use my Digitrax DCC 'cause of the power crazed Heljan motors

Gone, are the days, for me, when one could just pop a loco on the track and run it. I am lucky enough to have a Digitrax system, bought by my other half for me, yet I didnt want, with everything else going on at the mo, to have to phaff with fitting/trialing/programming a decoder - I feel tinges of childhood, and almost forgotten, impatience, creeping in There is the possibility of the Cl37, yet I wanted to detail that/re-work it a fair bit before putting it to work

......We, all, await, with baited breath, the Dapol 08 - I too have been told that the 08 will have a 'OO' motor within - a good move on their part I would say.

SW Digital recommend a 'OO' sound decoder for 7mm scale Bachmann 08 too!

Thanks guys

ATVB

CME

 

[lancer1027]

Interesting stuff.

If thats the case with the Dapol 08 then it would make it a little cheaper to fit a sound chip, so happy days on that score..

I too am not in a position to spend oodles of cash on a system and pay for people to fit sound chips to ALL mt locos. I would have to do this gradually loco by loco, bit at a time. Slow but thats how it is im affraid.

However i was talking to my mate about the Heljan 47 and he is looking at one of mine at the mo. This is to see what can be done as far as radio controlled equiptment etc is achievable. .

I didnt realise that the later Heljan locos have a different motor to the Hymek and 47. It could be good news then as they will hopefully be better ( less ampage but reliable ,).

Rob

 

[iploffy]

I gave up with Duette and other controllers and went for a Helmsman 5 Amp no problems at all there is one of the models comes with a built in ameter

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Interesting stuff.

If thats the case with the Dapol 08 then it would make it a little cheaper to fit a sound chip, so happy days on that score..

I too am not in a position to spend oodles of cash on a system and pay for people to fit sound chips to ALL mt locos. I would have to do this gradually loco by loco, bit at a time. Slow but thats how it is im affraid.

However i was talking to my mate about the Heljan 47 and he is looking at one of mine at the mo. This is to see what can be done as far as radio controlled equiptment etc is achievable. .

I didnt realise that the later Heljan locos have a different motor to the Hymek and 47. It could be good news then as they will hopefully be better ( less ampage but reliable ,).

Rob

Hi Rob,

Interesting points too

RC in 7mm locos - you may want to look at the RED ARROW RC system (not their infra-red) it is a viable option over DCC and one I have considered/considering myself over the past few months - there was also an article on it in MRJ recently

I hope that Heljan have improved the motors too - yet it would have been helpful if they had advertised such/told us.

ATVB

CME

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

I gave up with Duette and other controllers and went for a Helmsman 5 Amp no problems at all there is one of the models comes with a built in ameter

Hi Ian,

I would have done so myself too - as their products look great - yet I have DCC (still it's box - as layout is still unbuilt ) and two-three other controllers (for '00' and 0-16.5) and wouldnt want to splash anymore cash on controllers at this time - hence the OP really

I also have a 'cunning plan' .....yet to be revealed!

ATVB

CME

 

[InvernessTMD]

The 03 I run on Leeming Yard is the Bachmann Brassworks version and it has the 00 chip, as does the Hunslet (TCS non sound chip at the moment) and the GP-TRAMM.
I have heard some say that they needed the XL chip for the 03, but I couldnt get it to draw 0.5A

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

The 03 I run on Leeming Yard is the Bachmann Brassworks version and it has the 00 chip, as does the Hunslet (TCS non sound chip at the moment) and the GP-TRAMM.
I have heard some say that they needed the XL chip for the 03, but I couldnt get it to draw 0.5A

Hi ITMD

Nice work - that's what we like to see, as it all helps the pennies

ATVB

CME

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Martin,

there is a good cross section of Heljan/Bachmann/kit built diesels at the Club, i will try and organise some sort of 'experiment' to see what amperage is drawn by the various models with & without a trailing load and report back asap.

cheers

Mike

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi Martin,

there is a good cross section of Heljan/Bachmann/kit built diesels at the Club, i will try and organise some sort of 'experiment' to see what amperage is drawn by the various models with & without a trailing load and report back asap.

cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

That's very thoughtful of you, and hopefully will provide an interesting experiment, to the benefit of all.....could also help many here save on the price of decoders. IMHO there dont seem to be many decoders specifically for 'O' gauge/7mm/1ft as many of the larger decoders from the likes of Zimo, Lenz et al. are rated even higher for 'G Scale' et al. and these are the decoders that many UK retailers recommend - hence such are often over-specified for O gauge locos, then in effect 'over-priced' too for what is really required?

Looking forward to hearing more from you soon

ATVB

CME

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Martin,

herewith the results from my little survey on current consumption as promised. Nothing technical about it, just direct readings from the 'needle' - major spikes ignored. All running - one complete circuit, was done on the same circuit of track, first as light engine and then with the (heavy) load. The 04, 24 & 25 were not avqailable for the survey.

I would have thought that the 35 would have been the highest reading, being the first Heljan introduced, but I also think that the 47 is too heavy in the first place. It is interesting comparing the two 37s, is the later one fitted with a mire efficient motor/gearbox?

Also interesting that the DCC fitted 33 would not respond until the voltage was nearly at 12.5v.

I hope that it helps you with your questions.

cheers

Mike

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi Martin,

herewith the results from my little survey on current consumption as promised. Nothing technical about it, just direct readings from the 'needle' - major spikes ignored. All running - one complete circuit, was done on the same circuit of track, first as light engine and then with the (heavy) load. The 04, 24 & 25 were not avqailable for the survey.

I would have thought that the 35 would have been the highest reading, being the first Heljan introduced, but I also think that the 47 is too heavy in the first place. It is interesting comparing the two 37s, is the later one fitted with a mire efficient motor/gearbox?

Also interesting that the DCC fitted 33 would not respond until the voltage was nearly at 12.5v.

I hope that it helps you with your questions.

cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

I will download them and have a look - BTW are the green highlighted sections the amps?

.........BTW will I have to use Ohm's law so as to obtain the relative amps? It's been a long time since school etc

Any descrepancies ie the Cl37' s could be due to Heljan's QC issues, ie the motors are to the same spec. yet none, are in effect 'matched'??

In haste, many, many thanks.

ATVB

CME

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Martin,

all of the figures are Amps, the green lines are just to aid reading across the page.

Best of luck.

cheers

Mike

 

[TheSnapper]

Great stuff Mike.

Another method to determine max amp draw, is to measure the stall current, although your testing probably gives a more practical result.

See here or just Google "Stall Current"

Cheers
Tim

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi Martin,

all of the figures are Amps, the green lines are just to aid reading across the page.

Best of luck.

cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks - I have just PM'd you to say thanks again, please therefore ignore my Q re amps then, seems like my emailed Alerts from here are playing silly so and so's again

Your survey throws up some interesting and useful results (for us all here).

Many thanks once again

ATVB

CME