Caledonian Railway McIntosh 439 0-4-4T

Ian N

Western Thunderer
Hi all I'm about to start building one of these from a Meteor Kit. Does anyone have, or know where I can get sight of a GA for one? Ta Nick


CRA forum
this might possibly point you in the right direction. I don’t know the book, it’s availability or size of image though.
Alternatively, the Caledonian Railway Association may have something in their archives. They certainly have an outline drawing. Looking forward to your build before I start my DJH 4mm one for Princes St.

Forgot to say, I think the CRA forum is searchable by non members. There’s more info there if you search 439.
 
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ScottW

Western Thunderer
A number of years ago I did some research into the 439 class with a view to scratchbuilding a model in S-Scale.

Information and photographs of the class can be found in Locomotives Illustrated #144 and LMS Locomotives Vol. 3 written by Bob Essery & David Jenkinson. And, more recently, Caledonian Railway Locomotives-The Classic Years by HJC Cornwell (available from the CRA). Three distinct versions of the 439 class were built, the original being built by McIntosh, then by Pickersgill and finally by Nasmyth, Wilson for the LMS. The Pickersgill locomotives differed slightly from the McIntosh version in that they had a longer wheelbase bogie. On the McIntosh locomotives the distance from the trailing wheel, to the centre of the bogie, was 11’ 9”; the wheel base of the bogie being 5’ 6”. Pickersgill increased the distance from the trailing wheel, to the centre of the bogie, to 12’ 0” and increased the bogie wheelbase to 6’ 0”. The other difference between the two versions was that Pickersgill removed the rear sandbox from inside the cab and fitted it below the side tanks. The Nasmyth, Wilson version pretty much mimicked the Pickersgill locomotive except that the water capacity was increased; McIntosh/Pickersgill locomotives had a water capacity of 1,270 gallons and the Nasmyth, Wilson locomotives 1,380 gallons. Nasmyth, Wilson achieved the slightly greater water capacity by increasing the length of the side tanks from 10’ 5 1/2” to 10’ 9 7/8”.

Scale drawings do exist and the two which I have found are a Skinley 4mm drawing and a 7mm drawing from the CRA. Unfortunately I haven’t managed to source a GA drawing of the original McIntosh locomotive but there is a copy of the GA produced by Nasmyth, Wilson for the LMS version. The 439 class was a direct development of the final series of 92 class locomotives (sometimes regarded as the 879 class) and, as far as I can tell, was identical but without the condensing gear. GA drawings of both the 92 & 879 classes also exist. All these GA drawings are held in the NRM.

I did start on my own model a number of years ago using the 92, 879 and Nasmyth, Wilson GA drawings. Unfortunately, I hit a bit of a stumbling block when it came to the driving wheels and my progress was resigned to the shelf. Hopefully, with some help from another S Scale modeller, the problems will be resolved in the coming months and progress will start again. The Main frames have been cut and this is the finished bogie-

Bogie_9.JPG

I hope this helps and I will definately be looking forward to seeing how you progress with the kit.

Scott
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Nick,

I've just had a dig through all my Caledonian sources and can't come up with a GA of the original MacIntosh 439 class. The only thing I can find is a frame arrangement drawing in the NRM OPC Microfiche series.

439-Detail.jpg

3/GW/7432/E is the NRM microfiche number. I'm only assuming that this is a drawing and not a diagram so there might be an element if risk if ordered unseen. :) This is from a spreadsheet constructed by the late Jim McIntosh combining his data of Caledonian drawing numbers, build batch numbers and dates with my extraction of Caledonian drawings from the full listing of the NRM/OPC microfiche collection some years ago.

If you go for the later Pickersgill/LMS version then there are GAs available but Pickersgill extended the rear end by six inches so that's a fairly noticeable difference.

Your only hope might be contacting the people who own the preserved member if the class - they might just have some drawings available.


I also note from Campbell-Cornwell's book on Caledonian locomotives that, like most classes built over a period of years, there were several small detail differences on succeeding build batches.

Jim.
 

Daddyman

Western Thunderer
Thanks for posting that again. I saw it the first time you posted it but forgot where. :) I've got a couple of MacIntosh tank locos to build sometime and I've always puzzled how the cladding sheeting over the boiler at the tanks was done.

Jim.
Happy to help. I was puzzled for years too - and as I said before, I've never seen this modelled properly.
 

ScottW

Western Thunderer
Thanks for posting that picture, I've not seen it before. Here is a picture of 419 taken from the footbridge at Bo'ness.

439 040.jpg

I've often wondered how best to model the boiler/tank cladding, it will be interesting to see how Nick tackles this.

A little off topic but I believe totally relevent.

Scott
 
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Bill Campbell

Western Thunderer
These photographs of the tank tops and boiler cladding are very useful in that the Meteor kit instructions do not describe the relationship between them very well. The suggestion is that the riveting should be done to the tank top - it may well be better represented by a separate strip as appears to be shown in the photograph above.

Regards.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Rob,

I also note another detail just to the left of your red arrow pointing out the gap. This detail is also obvious in the earlier picture of the overturned loco.

Jim.
 
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Daddyman

Western Thunderer
It looks like the boiler clothing on the top of the boiler is one piece and leaves the boiler to meet the tank tops, with a rivet strip where the two join. The over-boiler piece is a challenge to roll. I had a go a few years ago, just as a proof-of-concept thing, but it was none too successful. The problem is getting the curves in the right place, and then reverse curves over to the tank tops without distorting the boiler top. I think I decided in the end to make a plasticard former first, and then anneal the brass and press it on to the former. But presumably Nick has more grown-up tools to help him do the job more easily. I'd also decided that there was no need doing a full boiler - it can stop at the tank front, which obviates the need for the tricky boiler-shaped cutting job on the tank fronts.

Notice too that the "tank front" doesn't cover all of the gap .
It certainly does on pre-preservation locos:

Screenshot (1298).png
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I'm going to Bo'ness next Thursday and if the engine is accessible I'll take pics. From memory the tank front has a pointy top edge to fill in to the boiler. Whether there is a gap or not will be entirely dependent on who had the cladding apart last and what sort of state it was in. Any resemblance to St Rollox drawing office will be fairly marginal, I wouldn't get too hung up about it.
Regards
Martin
 

Nick Dunhill

Western Thunderer
Does the boiler clothing continue beyond the boiler band in front of the tank? Is the top panel sitting on top of the boiler clothing, or IS it the boiler clothing?
 

Daddyman

Western Thunderer
Does the boiler clothing continue beyond the boiler band in front of the tank? Is the top panel sitting on top of the boiler clothing, or IS it the boiler clothing?
My understanding has always been that it IS the boiler cladding - I think there would not be the intermediate boiler bands otherwise? I'd say it's a separate piece ahead of the boiler band at the tank fronts. In fact, don't all locos have separate pieces of clothing between boiler bands? Can't remember.

Something I hadn't notice is that on some locos including the preserved one, the tank retaining straps/braces are embedded (see the detail referred to above), and on some they stand proud:
EDIT.jpgLMS/CR batch difference or local repair? The embedded version seems to have been more common - see the one derailed at Balnaguard above.
 
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