A Layout Called CHIMTONSTOKE
- Thread starter David Waite
- Start date
David Waite
Western Thunderer
The top all finished,
I put a wall around the rear edge and Partly along the sides to stop things rolling off which is bound to happen.
I put a Teak stain on the Top just to blend all the holes that were filled with putty, if it wasn't so patchwork I would have liked to have retained the original light shade of this Kauri timber, this piece of Kauri would have came from either New Zealand or Queensland.
I left the under side pretty much as it was just a light sand to retain the saw blade marks, I have put a top coat of Marine Clear Satin over the stain, however progress has slowed as our weather has turned cold so the clear coat is not drying fast and is staying tacky so over the last week I've only managed to finish the underside and one coat on the top side, so with Winter here now the top will take some time after it is all finished to become hard enough to use.
So seeing the Work Bench has now come to a halt I've moved to another project.
I Need a Vice for the work bench and yes I have one but it needs some work done to it before it is useable, I was walking around a Swap Meeting one time when I found a small cast vice, it was someones unfinished project maybe from a trade school who knows and it must be of a reasonable age as the threads are W/W, anyhow it needed to be finished and I couldn't help myself and yep it ended up under the bench until last Thursday.
Someone has machined the movable jaw and fitted the two guide pins as well as the vice screw and handle but these are not at right angles to the flat machined faces why who knows but the guid pins and screw are a perfect fit the the vice body itself, and the clamp screw was also made,
I will machine up the casting to align with angle of the guide pins that are already there.
This is it .
Into the sand blaster and this is what came out.
The first thing I did was to machine the base so it sits square when clamped on the bench.
I put a 3/8" bolt in the clamping hole and used this to hold it down along with a Mill clamp to keep it all square.
This little vice casting has a good hardness to it as occasional sparks came from the cutter, I must confess I love machining cast items my introduction with castings started at the age of 16 when I left school and after two weeks in the Sheet Metal shop I was put in the turning shop on a 12' Macson lathe to turn up Two High Speed 6 cylinder Crankshafts from raw castings as Bill the old turner had to go to hospital and they needed two of these desperately, these castings had to be lifted by crane onto the lathe [on and off many times] I was told how to operate the crane and how to sling the castings and given instructions along the way on how to fully machine these crankshafts including the flywheel taper, Main and Big end journals [3 rods per Journal] all to .007" up ready for grinding it took me a week a piece, old Bill would do one in 9 hours with empty coffee cups piled up all over the top of the massive gear head and a smouldering fag continuously hanging from his lower lip, I can see all this in my minds eye as if it was yesterday. Thinking of this now it was a dangerous job for a young kid straight from school, when the crankshaft was in the jig to turn the big end journals and these become centre line so the crankshaft was spinning outwards around in a blur while you fed either a right hand or left hand cutter in to machine the journal surface and the corner radius all this between two blurred Webs spinning around silently you knew they were there as they created a draft.
I was the only apprentice to ever turn up crankshafts for the company. The company is still going today they started in 1917, they don't make anything nowadays just assemble they buy in like most companies the old world has gone.
It didn't take much to get it to this stage I wonder why it was never finished,
I ran a stone over the machined surfaces on the jaws to give them a smooth surface but I didn't bother on the ends
I also machined a flat on the anvil.
All finished,
I made a button for the clamp screw and nickel plated it along with the vice screw handle which I did in position,
It works very smoothly with almost no movement I will clamp this to my workmate so I can continue with the GWR TC Instrument.
I put a wall around the rear edge and Partly along the sides to stop things rolling off which is bound to happen.
I put a Teak stain on the Top just to blend all the holes that were filled with putty, if it wasn't so patchwork I would have liked to have retained the original light shade of this Kauri timber, this piece of Kauri would have came from either New Zealand or Queensland.
I left the under side pretty much as it was just a light sand to retain the saw blade marks, I have put a top coat of Marine Clear Satin over the stain, however progress has slowed as our weather has turned cold so the clear coat is not drying fast and is staying tacky so over the last week I've only managed to finish the underside and one coat on the top side, so with Winter here now the top will take some time after it is all finished to become hard enough to use.
So seeing the Work Bench has now come to a halt I've moved to another project.
I Need a Vice for the work bench and yes I have one but it needs some work done to it before it is useable, I was walking around a Swap Meeting one time when I found a small cast vice, it was someones unfinished project maybe from a trade school who knows and it must be of a reasonable age as the threads are W/W, anyhow it needed to be finished and I couldn't help myself and yep it ended up under the bench until last Thursday.
Someone has machined the movable jaw and fitted the two guide pins as well as the vice screw and handle but these are not at right angles to the flat machined faces why who knows but the guid pins and screw are a perfect fit the the vice body itself, and the clamp screw was also made,
I will machine up the casting to align with angle of the guide pins that are already there.
This is it .
Into the sand blaster and this is what came out.
The first thing I did was to machine the base so it sits square when clamped on the bench.
I put a 3/8" bolt in the clamping hole and used this to hold it down along with a Mill clamp to keep it all square.
This little vice casting has a good hardness to it as occasional sparks came from the cutter, I must confess I love machining cast items my introduction with castings started at the age of 16 when I left school and after two weeks in the Sheet Metal shop I was put in the turning shop on a 12' Macson lathe to turn up Two High Speed 6 cylinder Crankshafts from raw castings as Bill the old turner had to go to hospital and they needed two of these desperately, these castings had to be lifted by crane onto the lathe [on and off many times] I was told how to operate the crane and how to sling the castings and given instructions along the way on how to fully machine these crankshafts including the flywheel taper, Main and Big end journals [3 rods per Journal] all to .007" up ready for grinding it took me a week a piece, old Bill would do one in 9 hours with empty coffee cups piled up all over the top of the massive gear head and a smouldering fag continuously hanging from his lower lip, I can see all this in my minds eye as if it was yesterday. Thinking of this now it was a dangerous job for a young kid straight from school, when the crankshaft was in the jig to turn the big end journals and these become centre line so the crankshaft was spinning outwards around in a blur while you fed either a right hand or left hand cutter in to machine the journal surface and the corner radius all this between two blurred Webs spinning around silently you knew they were there as they created a draft.
I was the only apprentice to ever turn up crankshafts for the company. The company is still going today they started in 1917, they don't make anything nowadays just assemble they buy in like most companies the old world has gone.
It didn't take much to get it to this stage I wonder why it was never finished,
I ran a stone over the machined surfaces on the jaws to give them a smooth surface but I didn't bother on the ends
I also machined a flat on the anvil.
All finished,
I made a button for the clamp screw and nickel plated it along with the vice screw handle which I did in position,
It works very smoothly with almost no movement I will clamp this to my workmate so I can continue with the GWR TC Instrument.
timbowales
Western Thunderer
That really is a lovely piece of work.
Reading your tale of being put to turn a crankshaft as an apprentice got me thinking, does any apprentice turner get taught to do proper stuff these days or are they just taught to be machine minders on CNC machines?
Tim T
simond
Western Thunderer
We have 3 CNC machines, two 5-axis mill-turn lathes and a 3-axis mill and our guys are time-served ex-apprentice (30 years ago) or school-and-shop taught (a few years ago on millers). The younger guy and one other member of staff are going on a two-day training course next week, on our 5-axis lathes. Not cheap, but a good investment.
They might “mind” the CNCs but they have to program them, do the tool setting on them them, maintain them, load and unload, and generally love them day-in, day-out. And do the post ops, including deburring, metrology, ultrasonic cleaning, etc.
In the unimaginably improbable case that we were to machine a crankshaft, we’d all sit down in the boardroom, around a CAD screen of the part, and work out how to do it together, along with the designer, the production manager, and me!
The last “difficult” job is now routine. There are no free tool slots on the 5-axis machine on that job, some 20 tools, and nearly four hours per part. CNC is brilliant at doing what you program it to do, over and over again. But you do have to be able to drive in the first place!
They might “mind” the CNCs but they have to program them, do the tool setting on them them, maintain them, load and unload, and generally love them day-in, day-out. And do the post ops, including deburring, metrology, ultrasonic cleaning, etc.
In the unimaginably improbable case that we were to machine a crankshaft, we’d all sit down in the boardroom, around a CAD screen of the part, and work out how to do it together, along with the designer, the production manager, and me!
The last “difficult” job is now routine. There are no free tool slots on the 5-axis machine on that job, some 20 tools, and nearly four hours per part. CNC is brilliant at doing what you program it to do, over and over again. But you do have to be able to drive in the first place!
michael080
Western Thunderer
Very nice project!
How did you manage to get the movable jaw parallel to the fixed one? I can't see any reference surface to get it parallel?
Michael
David Waite
Western Thunderer
Hi Tim sorry but I cannot answer that question as I left that industrial trade in 1989, however I assume apprentices would be taught all the basics at trade school even though they might be in a shop that only has CNC equipment and may never get to put their school learning to practice.
Basics are something that always need to be taught in my book as when things go wrong people tend to over complicate things but if you stop and think back to basics that you have done or been taught you normally will resolve the problem at hand.
David.
David Waite
Western Thunderer
HI Michael
That's a easy one just make sure the Mill vice is clocked up square with the table and simply clamp the guide pins up in the vice with the lower pin on the vice base to keep them horizontal and then machine a new surface on the jaw face which will now be at right angles to the guide pins then assemble the two halves, clock up the movable jaw [that was just machined] square to the table and machine the fixed jaw to suit, job done, of course the machined face at the front of the movable jaw will always remain out of square with the pins I could have re machined it but it doesn't matter no one would ever know its only for show [neatness]
In this photo you can see the slight taper of the cut on the jaw face that was required to make It right angles to the guide pins.
David.
David Waite
Western Thunderer
Hi Simon that has got me thinking can your CNC machine work out the average shape of a casting to allow all the required machined surfaces to be machined within the unknown shape provided or is there still some manual work involved to set up the item to be machined? I have no idea of CNC machines I wouldn't know how to even turn one on or what they are capable of.
With a casting of a crankshaft straight from a foundry, no two are the same their shapes can vary some what. Before I machined the crankshafts I first had to lower them into a open metal frame that allowed the crankshaft casting to be rotated by hand, at the ends of the jig was a slot that you could mark the end of the casting through with chalk as you rotated it to various positions, after both ends were marked you centre punched the shaft by eye in the centre of all the chalk markings this gave a average position to centre drill the casting, this was done with a air drill sitting on the floor [these centre dill holes were centre drilled again more accurate on the lathe with the casting rotating on steadies after a couple of rough levelling cuts were made for them] the casting was then lifted onto the lathe and set onto the two centres for the first stage of turning knowing that the casting would run very true, same was to follow with the big end journals when it was their time to be machined, both journals were opposite each other so a average was needed to enable the finished journals to be as close to their centres of each section of the casting this also gave a good balance in the finished product, this was all done with a jig on the face plate and with a angled crank on the tailstock.
David.
simond
Western Thunderer
David,
our CNCs are brilliant, but they are not intelligent. They are not really designed for turning crankshafts, but within the size constraints of the machines, you could certainly get to a level at which it could be finish ground. They cannot work out the average of anything, still less how to make the shape we want. They rely on someone A) arranging that the workpiece is suitably installed in the machine, and B) programming them (in G-code) to apply the tools to the workpiece to follow the "drawings" (more likely 3D math data) that I, or the design team, generate. We do have CAM, that is, Computer Aided Manufacture, which translates the 3D CAD form into G-code instructions - indeed, this is well within the scope of the amateur as well - see the "cheapo chinese miller" thread, which speeds this process considerably, but the "how to make it" is still in the head of the machinist (and hopefully, the designer too!).
Fundamentally the CNC setter-machinist needs to understand exactly the same things that a manual machinist needs to - cutter types, feeds, speeds, and workholding, and of course, how to apply a cutter to a workpiece to generate the desired form.
We have two of these, fitted with 65mm bar feeders. the "LSYB" version
www.millscnc.co.uk
The main chuck is normally replaced with a Hainbuch quick-change collet system which allows bars (up to 65mm dia) to be fed (by a pre-determined distance) through the main spindle. The collet then closes to grip the bar for machining. Of course, if you were habitually machining castings, you would choose suitable chuck jaws, and not bother with the bar feeder. Nearly all our work is less than 65mm diameter so the barfeeders are very efficient (though less so at sub 10mm dia).
They have 12-position turrets (a bit like a capstan but their axis is parallel to the main spindle) with powered tooling and a secondary axis where you would expect the tailstock to be, meaning we can feed a bar. machine one end, feed it a bit further, grip with the secondary chuck, part off, and machine the other end without touching the parts. The chucks/spindles can be arranged to run in synch so you can hold both ends of something you are parting off, and the angular position of the parts is controlled by the machine.
The powered tooling means that we can mill or drill with the tool axis perpendicular, or parallel, to the lathe axis. These tools can be moved radially and axially, of course, but there is a third, perpendicular axis as well. This is coupled with the capability to rotate the main spindle under full control, so machining a crankshaft would be a case of turning the outside diameter and main bearings and then using a powered tool (probably an endmill) to cut the big end bearings by rotating the workpiece slowly, and moving the tool in and out radially. This can then be repeated for the other big ends, with controlled angles between the various bearings.
We also have a 3-axis CNC mill, a DNM4500, which does everything a normal 3-axis mill can do - it does not have adjustable angles between the table and spindle, though we could purchase and add this feature if we ever needed it.
What CNC machines do brilliantly is what you program them to do - over and over again - this weekend, our production manager set one of the Lynxes to make a batch of 300 threaded parts - not big, not complicated, but with the lights out, the only costs were material (304 stainless) and electricity. They finished some time on Sunday morning, whilst the staff were all still snoring, presumably!
Whilst there are some jobs which are so complex that a CNC would be worth it for a one-off, they are really aimed at repeat work. The programming effort is not trivial, you want to amortise it over a number of parts - the larger, the better!
Here is a few videos - enjoy.
(it's a shame they don't have windscreen wipers!)
cheers
Simon
our CNCs are brilliant, but they are not intelligent. They are not really designed for turning crankshafts, but within the size constraints of the machines, you could certainly get to a level at which it could be finish ground. They cannot work out the average of anything, still less how to make the shape we want. They rely on someone A) arranging that the workpiece is suitably installed in the machine, and B) programming them (in G-code) to apply the tools to the workpiece to follow the "drawings" (more likely 3D math data) that I, or the design team, generate. We do have CAM, that is, Computer Aided Manufacture, which translates the 3D CAD form into G-code instructions - indeed, this is well within the scope of the amateur as well - see the "cheapo chinese miller" thread, which speeds this process considerably, but the "how to make it" is still in the head of the machinist (and hopefully, the designer too!).
Fundamentally the CNC setter-machinist needs to understand exactly the same things that a manual machinist needs to - cutter types, feeds, speeds, and workholding, and of course, how to apply a cutter to a workpiece to generate the desired form.
We have two of these, fitted with 65mm bar feeders. the "LSYB" version
Doosan Lynx 2600Y Series - Mills CNC
We are happy to present a vast range of Lynx 2600Y Series manufactured by Doosan. Find a suitable machine for your business today.
www.millscnc.co.uk
The main chuck is normally replaced with a Hainbuch quick-change collet system which allows bars (up to 65mm dia) to be fed (by a pre-determined distance) through the main spindle. The collet then closes to grip the bar for machining. Of course, if you were habitually machining castings, you would choose suitable chuck jaws, and not bother with the bar feeder. Nearly all our work is less than 65mm diameter so the barfeeders are very efficient (though less so at sub 10mm dia).
They have 12-position turrets (a bit like a capstan but their axis is parallel to the main spindle) with powered tooling and a secondary axis where you would expect the tailstock to be, meaning we can feed a bar. machine one end, feed it a bit further, grip with the secondary chuck, part off, and machine the other end without touching the parts. The chucks/spindles can be arranged to run in synch so you can hold both ends of something you are parting off, and the angular position of the parts is controlled by the machine.
The powered tooling means that we can mill or drill with the tool axis perpendicular, or parallel, to the lathe axis. These tools can be moved radially and axially, of course, but there is a third, perpendicular axis as well. This is coupled with the capability to rotate the main spindle under full control, so machining a crankshaft would be a case of turning the outside diameter and main bearings and then using a powered tool (probably an endmill) to cut the big end bearings by rotating the workpiece slowly, and moving the tool in and out radially. This can then be repeated for the other big ends, with controlled angles between the various bearings.
We also have a 3-axis CNC mill, a DNM4500, which does everything a normal 3-axis mill can do - it does not have adjustable angles between the table and spindle, though we could purchase and add this feature if we ever needed it.
What CNC machines do brilliantly is what you program them to do - over and over again - this weekend, our production manager set one of the Lynxes to make a batch of 300 threaded parts - not big, not complicated, but with the lights out, the only costs were material (304 stainless) and electricity. They finished some time on Sunday morning, whilst the staff were all still snoring, presumably!
Whilst there are some jobs which are so complex that a CNC would be worth it for a one-off, they are really aimed at repeat work. The programming effort is not trivial, you want to amortise it over a number of parts - the larger, the better!
Here is a few videos - enjoy.
cheers
Simon
David Waite
Western Thunderer
Thanks Simon
Well now I know I’m old fashioned,
We did have something close to a CNC it was called a Pegard horizontal Boring machine complete with steering wheels it was hydraulic and electric driven the main motor went all day about 40 hp if I remember correctly so the hydraulics kept everything in position it had a large turn table that could revolve and move in a X&Y axis, the boring head was horizontal and could rise and fall, it ran every day constantly fly cutting , machining, drilling tapping ect with the aid of steering wheels. Cast crankcases up to 16 cylinders (about 6 feet long) were fully machined on this machine as well as the oil galleries key ways ect for the crankshafts were done on it, Just about everything was done on it.
It was semi automatic in a way as each individual Job had a set of highly accurate ground flat bars (there was a name for these but I’ve forgotten) about 3”x5/8” and various lengths some 5’long that would be fitted on dowels and bolted at various positions around the machine these bars had many buttons (like large rivet heads) on them at exact positions that the sensors would contact and operate the machine accordingly, example it would automatically line up the drill position to the thou and you could check its position by looking through a viewing hole like a microscope and read the position in thou‘s at various locations, normally you wouldn’t bother and just waited until the hydraulics stopped making a noise and you knew it was on target and then you would drive the drill bit in with the steering wheel then once extracted you would operate the control panel to make it find the next hole which was one of the rivets on the bars. it was a very complicated machine there were electric clutches in it that failed due to a fault in their design and I came to work one day and found it was partially stripped down and the fitters were stumped, and guess who got the job, I managed to remove the failed clutch and repaired it to my own design and did the other clutches as a precaution all went well it took a few days to do this, it had basically one operator “Vincent“ a wonderful person he worked this machine for many years well before I joined the company, we would see each other every day for about ten years, I went to a company reunion years later and Vincent was there he had aged and didn’t remember me.
David.
David Waite
Western Thunderer
I finished the Mobile Work Bench today I won't be able to use it for some time as the clear coat will take a while to dry in this cold weather, as you can see it was raining here today.
The Trolly Handle in its stowed position
I know I could have made a spring loaded lock but call this laziness or whatever anyhow it works a treat.
It is so easy to move about no effort needed, what a beautiful piece of timber it takes on different shades
depending on the light I'm so glad I saved it.
Even up the step no problem
The Trolly Handle in its stowed position
I know I could have made a spring loaded lock but call this laziness or whatever anyhow it works a treat.
It is so easy to move about no effort needed, what a beautiful piece of timber it takes on different shades
depending on the light I'm so glad I saved it.
Even up the step no problem
michael mott
Western Thunderer
That must give you a lot of satisfaction. I have to say that being able to be outside in fresh air while doing some of the small repetitive tasks is quite refreshing.
Michael
Michael
Track Laying
New
David Waite
Western Thunderer
What No Signal Instruments I can here you saying well it got to 8.9C outside today with a wind that would go right through you so after getting the fire wood ready for tonight I wasn't going outside again so up into the attic I went. With the summer gone I had removed the foil off the windows a few weeks ago, so now I have natural light once again and what a strange day it has been we even had sunshine peeping through now and again.
After seeing my friends latest scratch build it spurred me to do something anything as a change even though I've got some irons in the fire already, so dug out a white metal kit of a 1927 Maudslay bus last night it had originally came from Model Railways Kings Cross the return slip inside was dated 14/8/76 yeh well all good things take time but after opening the box today I put it away again quicker than I took it out, it looked stressful. So after walking around the room moving things about as one dose I ended up standing in front of the lift section and I thought I should do some track work and so I did it was as simple as that.
My large Scope Iron needs a new carbon element I know I have a spare or two somewhere however it managed to get through the day but at the end the trigger was getting very close to the end of its travel I could use the mini scope but the larger iron is better at Tacking the rail.
In this photo I used the KAYDEE track gauges to centre the rails on the sleepers
This piece of Aluminium T was machined at 16.5 and sits on the inside base of the flat bottom rail it makes straight rail work easy, my biggest problem I found was this code 70 rail is extremely fiddly and hard to see since I last used it.
One side soldered.
Both sides now soldered
Down line done.
It is surprising how these small Aluminium blocks will grip a tight spot as you slide them along and while the block is on the tight spot a little heat applied from the iron it soon moves the rail into place.
So this is what I have managed to achieve today it was extremely difficult with my eyes the way they are, sighting off the rails to see how they are flowing is basically impossible for me, I made lots of mistakes but the track gauges have found most of them I will look at this new piece of track over the next few days to see in different lights what might be wrong before I get the 25 watt iron out and solder it all up solid, then onto the point work.
After seeing my friends latest scratch build it spurred me to do something anything as a change even though I've got some irons in the fire already, so dug out a white metal kit of a 1927 Maudslay bus last night it had originally came from Model Railways Kings Cross the return slip inside was dated 14/8/76 yeh well all good things take time but after opening the box today I put it away again quicker than I took it out, it looked stressful. So after walking around the room moving things about as one dose I ended up standing in front of the lift section and I thought I should do some track work and so I did it was as simple as that.
My large Scope Iron needs a new carbon element I know I have a spare or two somewhere however it managed to get through the day but at the end the trigger was getting very close to the end of its travel I could use the mini scope but the larger iron is better at Tacking the rail.
In this photo I used the KAYDEE track gauges to centre the rails on the sleepers
This piece of Aluminium T was machined at 16.5 and sits on the inside base of the flat bottom rail it makes straight rail work easy, my biggest problem I found was this code 70 rail is extremely fiddly and hard to see since I last used it.
One side soldered.
Both sides now soldered
Down line done.
It is surprising how these small Aluminium blocks will grip a tight spot as you slide them along and while the block is on the tight spot a little heat applied from the iron it soon moves the rail into place.
So this is what I have managed to achieve today it was extremely difficult with my eyes the way they are, sighting off the rails to see how they are flowing is basically impossible for me, I made lots of mistakes but the track gauges have found most of them I will look at this new piece of track over the next few days to see in different lights what might be wrong before I get the 25 watt iron out and solder it all up solid, then onto the point work.
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
That’s looking great David; I love the flow of the track work you have designed.
Nigel
