Peco points

[Brian T]

Hi guys,

i'm looking at a couple of peco points,but only ever having the 7mm versions i was wondering if the the G1 ones suffer from the same problem,
ie; wheel drop in the frog.

Cheers,
Brian.

 

[simond]

I’d suggest that’ll depend on both the wheels and the check gauge.

if there’s sufficient clearance, as there is in 0F, you’ll get wheel drop. Peco points work very well, but do suffer this issue

If you tighten the gauge, then the wheel only drops by the clearance of the coning as it passes across the common crossing, as in 0MF or S7 (or the real thing)

I have no knowledge of G1, but guess the same applies.

hth
Simon

 

[David Halfpenny]

Hi guys,

i'm looking at a couple of peco points,but only ever having the 7mm versions i was wondering if the the G1 ones suffer from the same problem,
ie; wheel drop in the frog.

Cheers,
Brian.

Sadly, Brian, wheel drop into the crossing gap got accidentally baked into the usual 'G1MRA Standard' standards for track and wheelsets. As a result, side-gouging at crossings (frogs, whatever,) is endemic wherever fast, heavy, unsprung live-steam G1 locomotives make lap after lap with a heavy unsprung express train. I calculate that it takes about a 100 'exhibition running days' to make a brass turnout unusable and prone to cause derailments. Turnout maintenance is accepted as part and parcel of being custodian of a G1 exhibition track.

(I'm able to explain how that lieral train-wreck came about, but will only do so if provoked.)​

​

Fortunately, there's a number of ways out of this mess - pick what suits you best.

- It's hugely less of a problem on a home-based scenic railway with relatively light, relatively slow-moving, properly sprung vehicles.

- Nickel-silver and stainless steel rail, although quite soft in themselves, resist wear better than brass.

- Western Thunder may not be the best forum to mention it but, using broader wheels, such as the 7mm width common on pre-war G1 stock and all G-Scale stock, solves the problem entirely.

- Conversely, changing to one of the several Finescale standards also eliminates the problem entirely, while noticeably improving appearance. G1MRA publishes two versions of Finescale: "G1MRA Fine" standard, and ScaleOne323, developed and promoted by members of this forum.

However that does pose a barrier to inter-running with 'common-or-garden' G1 products, and may involve investing in a wheel re-profiling tool. Folk with expensive r-t-r locomotives are right to hesitate about that.​

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Therefore:

- If you'd like to keep your G1MRA Standard rolling stock in as-bought condition (and allow such stock to visit your track), there's some extremely good news - provided you don't intend to run Vintage or G-Scale trains.

It is possible to narrow the crossing gap slightly, so that 6mm wide wheels no longer fall into the crossing-gap.​

​

I have personally converted a Peco turnout in this way, mounting it on a board face-to-face with an unmodified turnout to form a crossover. I invite people to run a loco or other rolling stock over both crossings using light hand pressure, so that they can both feel and hear where wheels still drop into the gap - and where they no longer do.

It really is an eye opener!​

​

I haven't yet mentioned how much to narrow the crossing gap by. That's because G1MRA Committee is in the process of testing a serious of narrowed crossings on heavily-used exhibition layouts to find the optimum (meaning of course the optimum for fast, heavy, unsprung live-steam G1 locomotives making lap after lap with a heavy unsprung express train).

However my own 'bench' experiments narrow the gap from 3mm down right to 2mm in order to highlight potential 'side-effects'. I don't think one needs to be quite that extreme to get a good result.​

​

Tips for anyone who wants to experiment for themselves:

- Remember that Peco is 1.75" gauge while other brands may be 45mm gauge. It Matters.​

- If you're tempted to narrow the check-gap as well (for good looks), remember you need to clear the 40mm back-to-back of G1MRA-Standard wheels. ​

​

Finally for now, if you use Slaters F series wheels, which are G1MRA Fine profiles set at 41mm back to back, "you're on your own mate", at least until G1MRA and I have done some more experiments.

Do ask if you - or indeed anyone else - are interested in the general principle, or about potential pitfalls, or about the specifics of dismantling, modifying and reassembling a Peco turnout.

David 1/2d​

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[Bigjohn]

David,
Could the problem be resolved (temporarily) by packing the crossing with lightly crushed Ali foil which would support the tread and the flange to be supported through the “”wheel drop area”. The wheel creating its own path through the foil…………or is that underthinking the problem?..
Big J

 

[Brian T]

Hi David,

Thank you for the comprehensive explaination...

When i dipped my toes into G1 a while ago i did ponder coverting to the 'proto' side of things,but decided against it as i thought the cost (for me) was'nt really justifiable, especially as i model US 1/4 inch in 'proto48' standards.(this costs enough as it is..!!)
Anyhow what i have is'nt going to amount to much layout wise,a simple shunty layout so slow speeds will be the order of the day and wheel drop in my eyes will be noticable..hence the question..

But as i can pick up some Peco G1 points at a reasonable price i thought i'd go this route.

Do ask if you - or indeed anyone else - are interested in the general principle, or about potential pitfalls, or about the specifics of dismantling, modifying and reassembling a Peco turnout.

David 1/2d​

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I would be interested in the specifics of you Peco point modifications if you don't mind,as i'm more than likely going to purchase some Peco points.
I would purchase the Cliff Barker ones,but again having trouble justifing the cost for a side project..!!.

Cheers,
Brian.

 

[simond]

David,
Could the problem be resolved (temporarily) by packing the crossing with lightly crushed Ali foil which would support the tread and the flange to be supported through the “”wheel drop area”. The wheel creating its own path through the foil…………or is that underthinking the problem?..
Big J

plasticine works. It’s not big and it’s not clever, but it does work

 

[David Halfpenny]

plasticine works. It’s not big and it’s not clever, but it does work

Bigjohn and SimonD,
Filling the crossing gap up to flange level is a common practice.
Each practitioner has their own favourite recipe, from Plastikard to chewing gum.
In G1 Plasticine would need quite a while to harden for Heavy and/or fast stock.
Complete success depends on all one's flanges being the same depth - which they might well be on a home layout.

 

[simond]

I’d much rather have the smaller flangeways that P4, S7 and their equivalents have by design, but I have been building and collecting 0F stock for well over twenty five years, and all my mates have 0F stock and some (sadly departed) had tracks on which to run it. I decided to go 0MF which means my mates can run their stock on my layout when I finally get to build it.

It’s a compromise, but a better compromise than plasticine, I guess the same is possible, but perhaps more difficult in G1

 

[David Halfpenny]

I would be interested in the specifics of you Peco point modifications if you don't mind

Not forgotten you, Brian, just deep in alligators :-(

Peco turnouts are readily dismantled almost without tools.

Chairs, crossing and wing rails just slide out and can be re-used.​

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There's some surgery to do on the polystyrene, and a bit of re-bending to do to the wing rails.

For 2-rail, the electrical connections to the frog need breaking and remaking.​

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DO NOT try to use Peco's spare parts, which are advertised for G1 but only fit SM32 turnouts!

Rail Joiners

1 set of Frog and Wing Rails for the construction of turnouts, using Code 200 Flat Bottom rail. Gauge One models are built to a scale of 10mm/foot, or approx 1:30 scale. This is a great scale for live steam locomotives, or electric and internal combustion models. This scale is often used in the...

peco-uk.com

I'll send more detail when I can. David

(Incidentally, I bought a job-lot of three well-used turnouts, TWO of which had been incorrectly assembled at the factory.)

 

[Brian T]

Hi David,

Not forgotten you, Brian, just deep in alligators :-(

Absolutley no worries at all...
I'll look forward to your next reply....that is if the alligators don't get you first..

(Incidentally, I bought a job-lot of three well-used turnouts, TWO of which had been incorrectly assembled at the factory.)

me too..!!
Hence the question to do with peco points...

Brian.